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Post by Ralph on Feb 8, 2012 2:40:33 GMT -5
"might have made bad decisions"
That's an understatement.
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Post by longtimer on Feb 8, 2012 5:43:19 GMT -5
BZ, I don't think anyone is suggesting that he should not be held accountable, they are saying he has been over charged. And the fact is the police unofficially are on trial as they should be in this case. They screwed up badly and their poor decisions made a bad situation much worse. I have not seen one good reason why they initiated the gun fire. They also should be held accountable and at least to this point none of them has been.
My own feeling is they are most likely going to find him guilty but there may be one or two jurors who will hang that jury. If he is not found guilty he surely will be charged with a lesser crime and will definitely do time as he should.
While some may feel that police are persecuted over situations like this the fact is they are treated like everyone I know in the private sector. In the business world, when something goes horribly wrong due to very bad decisions, as is the case here, somebody or a group of people are held accountable and they usually lose their jobs. I might also add that usually happens very quickly, a matter of weeks at most. The major difference with police is that they are public servants so it becomes more public as it should, that just comes with the job.
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Post by JGRobinson on Feb 8, 2012 7:57:25 GMT -5
LT is right on. I do not blame the Police for the initiation of the standoff or what caused them to respond to begin with, that was between Patterson and his wife until the moment 911 was called. Thats the minute when cooler, well trained heads should have prevailed, no doubt that the only person left in the house was distraught and emotional when the Police arrived. They were responding to a he said/ she said report and Patterson likely perceived he was on trial at that moment and reacted hastily and rashly. Thats not all that surprising, if you've watched "Cops" more than once, you will see lots of reactions that are less than rational or intelligent yet very few shots fired because of them. For some reason, the guy is almost always perceived as the danger and the cause of domestic disputes even when the statistics show thats not the case often enough. Women can be very violent and blind chivalry often creates hasty and foolish responses especially by the Male community. We immediately get very angry with a man abusing a Woman or Child but seem to react differently when a Woman does the same thing! Ive seen woman smacking cops on TV and the Police just calmly Subdue, Arrest and book them, a male resisting arrest or that doesn't wish to talk gets a beat-down and then arrest and book them.
Time was on the officers side, the surrounding community and scene was by all descriptions nonviolent and secure, they had endless shifts of officers and lots of Psyc folks that certainly could have outlasted him on their worst days. That may have been more expensive than a tazing, a few plastic bullets and a quick arrest but in hindsight, the loss of an Officer, the trial and incarceration of him will cost us an immeasurable life and 5 or 6 Million dollars more beyond that. The mere presence of a gun is not actionable without perceived intent, its no more dangerous than hugging a teddy bear if your sure the teddy isnt pointed at you or anyone else. None of the LEOs have said that they were threatened with any violence prior to the blinding blitzkrieg assault by an overzealous inexperienced team of "Standoff Negotiators". Trained Military and Police respondents train hard for all of these scenarios. We train to the point that we can quote line and number word for word or we get a no-go and dont get bullets. No LEO or Soldier just gets to pickup an issue sidearm, M16 and a badge or Military Green Card because they took an 8 hour course.
The Police were told by the homeowner they couldn't come in and he wasn't coming out, a Mexican Standoff; this wasn't Stalingrad or the Western Front. The Sheriff said they were worried about his state of mind and that he might kill himself, so----- they blinded him with lights, shot him and tried to Taze Him! Hmmm, sounds like a pretty severe suicide prevention tactic to me, does this sound like any type of typical Standard Operating Procedure executed or an Audie Murphey Hail Mary gut reaction that went really bad? Tell me, is life in prison better for Patterson than suicide? The answer is no, that why you will have a hard time convincing me that his intent was ever to kill himself or anyone else, that just doesnt make sense.
The response from the LEOs is not unexpected, they dont like armchair QB's and they lost one of their own. Either of those would make anyone of us angry under much less traumatic situations. The responses from those of us that have given this situation deep consideration are also reasonable. This is not unlike a typical After Action review, Techniques and Tactics are SOP, not as subjective as many would have you believe. Rules of Engagement do exist in war-zones and non combat entrenched civilian areas like Knoxboro. The Tactics for subduing this civilian not exhibiting any violence were not only ineffective, they were just plain wrong and inappropriate for this textbook non-confrontational standoff. Yes I do believe, We The People do have both the Right and the Responsibility to question the actions of those who we trust to Protect and Serve all of us, even the mentally unstable ones.
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Post by firstamendment on Feb 8, 2012 9:06:38 GMT -5
 Whose on trial here? Law enforcement might have made bad decisions and the girlfriend might have argued with Patterson, but Patterson killed someone and should be held accountable for his actions. He is on trial and rightfully so. I do have sympathy for anyone with mental problems but to excuse their actions especially when they injure or kill others is never acceptable. If that were the case no one would ever be convicted of any crime. If they want to take their own life then so be it but when they take others with them then they should be held responsible for murdering another.  Mental illness is an affirmative defense of a crime. Consider what we now know about that night that we did not before. If Patterson had taken a plea deal, none would be the wiser to how badly they screwed the pooch here. This is the information the public needs to know about. In this technological day and age, it is still hard to believe no video exists or that no video has been presented thus far. The days of taking things at face value on their word are long since over. This case presents exactly why. We've read, or in some cases, actually heard conflicting information by people testifying for the prosecution. Some of this even conflicts with what was reported by the Sheriff's Office well before the trial. Had we taken their word for it several months ago, who would know the real truth? Yes, Patterson is on trial here, but the OCSO is also, as they need to be. Accountability doesn't stop at the guy in the garage with the gun who may or may not be mental. Nebush should be calling the Psychiatrist today and it would not surprise me if Nebush also had on tap at least one expert witness on how standoff's like these should be conducted and how time is always on their side as opposed to the defendant's. Some of you put LEO's on a pedestal for various reasons, whether you are one, related to one, whatever. I would like to believe they are all worthy of our trust, else society turns to chaos if they aren't. I don't simply put a person up on that pedestal because of their profession, because, as reality has shown us, some never should have been in their respective line of work in the first place. No, first and foremost, I respect the LAW. The law does not suffer from the human condition of becoming selfish, power hungry, corruptible, etc... I respect the fact that someone has sworn an oath to serve, protect and uphold the law. Upholding the law means they aren't breaking it themselves. A badge should be not only representative to the laws they enforce, but also a symbol of that person's character, that they act professionally, are deserving of our respect and admiration, and that the law applies equally, even to themselves. I have friends and relatives who have or still do work in law enforcement. Someone related to my mom is with the UPD. A relative of my wife's is a NYS Trooper. A long time friend of mine is with the OCSO Correctional Division. And there are some others I am forgetting. Let me tell you, some of the stories I have heard or even seen firsthand from them about what some LEO's can and do get away with would give you pause as to whether there still exists any professionalism in this profession. And what we are learning from the Patterson trial only makes matters worse. Besides the public, the people who suffer the most from these bad apples are the good ones who still live up to the expectations set for them when they took that oath and wear the badge everyday. They are the ones bearing the brunt of distrust because someone else wasn't trustworthy. And that is the sad reality of it. Don't be naive to think they never do anything wrong or that they are incorruptible simply because of their line of work. You will be greatly disappointed. Instead of denying mistakes happened in Knoxboro, Maciol needs to make this right. He's got a serious PR problem on his hands here and instead of acting like an elected politician trying spin and damage control, he needs to re-establish trust between the Office and the public. Withholding whatever report was compiled from an investigation into this mess sure as shit does nothing in the trust department. Patterson bears some responsibility here, but when you have one armed man cornered in a garage for over six hours with a small army outside and you can't control the situation, you've got serious problems. And those problems have nothing to do with that specific defendant. This may show an even bigger systemic problem in this organization beyond just the Knoxboro incident. Admit what went wrong, learn from it, change your policies and procedures to minimize a reoccurance of this. |
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Post by frankcor on Feb 8, 2012 10:30:01 GMT -5
I don't recall ever hearing about an internal investigation or review of this incident by the Sheriff. Was there one?
If I served in an agency that had an incident go so wrong, I would expect that there would be a review and, if warranted, changes in training, procedure or practice would be implemented. A stony wall of silence or shouting down questions does nothing to promote officer safety.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Feb 8, 2012 12:42:35 GMT -5
In June of last year Sheriff Maciol announced that there would be an internal investigation. A couple months later a spokesperson announced that the investigation was almost complete, that there were no mistakes in procedure and that there might be some changes in policy. A couple days later there was an announcement that the report had been delayed. I don't remember anything after that.
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Post by dgriffin on Feb 8, 2012 13:48:25 GMT -5
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Post by firstamendment on Feb 8, 2012 14:19:01 GMT -5
Problem #1: an internal investigation. How does anyone put any credibility into an investigation when the investigator is the same organization being investigated? This needed to be done by an outside agency, probably the NYSP.
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Post by firstamendment on Feb 8, 2012 21:11:09 GMT -5
The shrink who testified was not the one I thought it was. Perhaps the doc I had in mind is at the Trebilcock trial?
Anybody read today's testimony from Farago who testified for the prosecution? He claims humans don't have a ''fight or flight'' response. Is this guy really a doctor?
Lesswing also concluded it’s likely that Patterson automatically fired a second shotgun blast because a “fight or flight response” had kicked in after he was shot by police. In those instances, Lesswing said, “the reaction is not something we can control.” But, Farago said the uncontrollable fight or flight response is something you’d find in animals, not humans. “Human beings aren’t cats, where you’re cornering them,” Farago said.
Do we have any war veterans among our membership that can testify that ''fight or flight'' is very real?
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Post by bobbbiez on Feb 8, 2012 23:49:17 GMT -5
I am not an expert in procedures like this and I wasn't there to give an eye witness account. I do know at the deputy's funeral his father spoke to those in attendance and stated he knew his son well and he knows his son would have put himself in the front line to help resolve the situation. That is a fact. From what I am getting from the testimonials so far in the trial, that is exactly what he did. He ignored all warnings and went against orders to stay back. But this is not what I am considering in deciding Patterson's guilt or innocence. As I said before Patterson had plenty of time and could have ended this very peacefully by just putting down his gun as ordered. In testifying Patterson stated very clearly this whole incident was his girlfriend's and law enforcement's fault. Not once did he state he was to blame for "anything" or was he remorseful in the fact that "his" actions caused anothers death. He took absolutely no accountability for his own actions. Besides, from what I understand and correct me if I'm mistaken but the rifle he had could not have gone off by mistake for any reason he stated even if he fall backwards. I think I'm correct in saying he had to pump it each time for him to fire it. He intentionality fired it more then once and knowingly at law enforcers. I believe this will be what the jurors will consider in deciding Patterson's guilt or innocence.
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Post by Clipper on Feb 9, 2012 0:53:38 GMT -5
It wasn't a rifle, it was a shotgun, and if it was a semi auto, it would fire every time he pulled the trigger once he cocked it the first time, which he probably did early on.
By the time you get back from Jamiaca, maybe the trial will be over, and they can start the process of finding out who really screwed up and started the whole gunfire mess.
Hopefully lessons are learned, competency when it comes to command and control, and other procedural issues will be addressed, and training will prevent anyone else from being killed due to the poor judgement that occurred that night on EVERYBODY'S part, both Patterson and the police.
I have the highest of respect for the law enforcement community, and in a positive vein, it is necessary for them to get to the bottom of this, admit there was errors and do something to insure that it doesn't occur again because of some sort of cover their own ass pride thing. OCSD has a contingent of brave and dedicated officers, but they are not perfect. They screwed up big time somewhere along the line and it must be remedied to prevent a repeat performance at some time in the future., and the public is going to demand to be privy to the results of any investigation and the resolutions.
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Post by frankcor on Feb 9, 2012 12:20:35 GMT -5
Anybody read today's testimony from Farago who testified for the prosecution? He claims humans don't have a ''fight or flight'' response. Obviously he has never been shot at. re: fight of flight in combat I recall one incident where I did both. Simultaneously. |
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Post by Clipper on Feb 9, 2012 12:51:20 GMT -5
I fully concur. Nothing gets your blood pumping more than being shot at, lethal or non-lethal. Instinct as well as panic kicks in and self preservation becomes a simple relex action for the most part.
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Post by firstamendment on Feb 9, 2012 13:15:06 GMT -5
I am not an expert in procedures like this and I wasn't there to give an eye witness account. I do know at the deputy's funeral his father spoke to those in attendance and stated he knew his son well and he knows his son would have put himself in the front line to help resolve the situation. That is a fact. From what I am getting from the testimonials so far in the trial, that is exactly what he did. He ignored all warnings and went against orders to stay back. But this is not what I am considering in deciding Patterson's guilt or innocence. And that is exactly the reason why Wyman shouldn't have been kept at the scene. Lack of training and lack of following commands. Those on scene that were supposed to be in control should have removed any and all personnel not specifically trained to handle this. That is a crucial command mistake. And that is something Patterson had no control over. Patterson's guilt or innocence is determined by determining his intent to kill. Testimony as well as Mc Namara's press conference early on all stated Patterson never threatened them either verbally or by his actions. So, where is this intent? As I said before Patterson had plenty of time and could have ended this very peacefully by just putting down his gun as ordered. In testifying Patterson stated very clearly this whole incident was his girlfriend's and law enforcement's fault. Not once did he state he was to blame for "anything" or was he remorseful in the fact that "his" actions caused anothers death. He took absolutely no accountability for his own actions. Besides, from what I understand and correct me if I'm mistaken but the rifle he had could not have gone off by mistake for any reason he stated even if he fall backwards. I think I'm correct in saying he had to pump it each time for him to fire it. He intentionality fired it more then once and knowingly at law enforcers. I believe this will be what the jurors will consider in deciding Patterson's guilt or innocence. Not many defendants will admit their culpability so that doesn't surprise me nor sway me either way. He does have some level of culpability whether he admits it or not. As much as I do not feel murder charges were warranted, he is not without blame. I cannot speak to whatever issues he and his girlfriend and son have or had and how they impacted this entire thing. Perhaps there is some blame to be levied there also. It doesn't justify the outcome, but at the very least shows how others contributed to this mess. If this was about her cheating, she simply should have packed her stuff and moved out instead of pretending to be with this man while sleeping with another. This does not mean she deserved whatever transpired between them that night and you aren't hearing me ever justifying domestic abuse, but adding more stress on a person does more harm than simply walking away. Neither Patterson nor Secor probably ever envisioned either being up to their necks in a situation like this when their relationship soured, but it happens when people are pushed to the breaking point. Acquitted or not, I hope like hell they are not even considering maintaining a relationship beyond that of parents to their son. Yes, BZ, Patterson had hours to figure out what he was going to do. You, I and everybody else are thinking about this not under mounting stress and pressure and whatever else triggered him into holding a gun on himself. We can all try to rationalize him but there is no rationale to irrational behavior. Have a nice trip while you are at it. Sounds like fun. Then again, any place that is not in NYS sounds like fun.... |
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Post by bobbbiez on Feb 9, 2012 13:52:10 GMT -5
Have a nice trip while you are at it. Sounds like fun. Then again, any place that is not in NYS sounds like fun....[/quote] FA, thank you much! Y'all will be in my thoughts and prayers every day as always.   Whatever happens we will have to accept what the jury decides with Patterson. Sadly, any verdict will not bring back Deputy Wyman. My prayers will be with his family in missing him.  |
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Whose on trial here? Law enforcement might have made bad decisions and the girlfriend might have argued with Patterson, but Patterson killed someone and should be held accountable for his actions. He is on trial and rightfully so. 
