EMERGENCY MEETING AT 2PM TODAY

[thelma]

NO, Dave, I certainly was NOT referring to you. You've worked hard for everything you have achieved. As they say, "You did it the Old Fashion Way - You worked for it"!!!!!

I'm talking about the "liberals" in general that think poverty, race, environment, & lack of family ethics are all "excuses" for not achieving and rising above your circumstances. It is far easier to use one of these "excuses" for not achieving anything in your life.

[Clipper]

Well, Thelma, there ya go! Take your bad experience in Park Edge Town Houses, and make a blanket judgement of anyone with dark skin. Take a narrow minded view that "black" is the problem, and not "crime", as you seem to infer most of the time.

Take those attitudes and your indignant insistence that ANYONE can pull themselves up from poverty because YOU did it, and pour them all in a bucket, and you have a bucket full of nothing but fuel to pour on the fire, instead of a little water to cool the embers. I bet you would be for bulldozing Cornhill, and evicting blacks from any place within the city limits of Utica.

I sometimes think that Jduges had a good idea in a post in the OD. He obnoxiously stated that the answer to the race issue, is for blacks and whites to intermarry and mingle until all are the same mixed race. Damn sure would work wouldn't it? What is the world coming to?

The sad thing that frustrates me, is that when any mention of addressing the issues arises, it is usually accompanied by a white,condescending, and superior attitude, like we are bending over to cater to their issues. A little serious attempt to understand WHY they have those feelings that we as whites don't seem to be able to comprehend, or sympathize with, might go a long ways. It is easy to "look down" when it is not us, as whites, that has the issue.

Are the blacks justified in all of there perceived persecution? No! Are we whites justified in our stereo typing and blanket prejudice against a whole race because of a few bad examples? No!

Nothing will be accomplished until we can put ourselves in each other's shoes and walk a mile in each other's moccasins. Paying lip service to the problems, by politicians does nothing.

Might surprise many to find that a lot of the drugs sold by innercity dealers, comes from WHITE criminal elements. Organized crime is still alive and not all black. Our pale white asses are not immune to criminal activity. Don't we think that there are as many baggy pants white kids doing dope and selling dope? Take it from me. I am father to a recovering addict. He has told me that with all the heroin he purchased before beginning his recovery, he never dealt with a black dealer, or went to Cornhill to buy, and he bought dope in N. Utica, and Rome, as well as Whitesboro and other area towns, many times. My son comes from a good white family. You don't have to be black to raise a kid that becomes involved in illegal activity, and it is not sequestered in Cornhill and W. Utica.

All that is being accomplished with all the prejudice and pointing fingers at Cornhill and the inner city, is that the crime is spreading to other parts of the city, because we are in denial that it will happen in "our" neighborhood, because WE live in a "white middle class" neighborhood, and not in the "ghetto".

There ya go! Ya got me up on my "liberal" soap box again! Hasn't happened since the old days on the OD forums, haha!

Do ya remember the "color blind" remarks I made? Being color blind is a GOOD thing sometimes. It lets us look objectively at issues that are muddied with the racial bias we ALL feel sometimes. Yes, I too, have racially biased feelings from time to time! Nobody is immune, and it is human nature. You simply have to interject objectivity into the equation and control the bias.

Thelma, try a little objectivity, and understanding, and try not being so hard on everyone that hasn't been as successful as you have. You and I have differing views on many subjects, but race is one that really bothers me about many of your posts. You have struggled and won the battle. Not every one is that strong, or that "lucky" to have the opportunity to achieve what you did. Nothing would ever be accomplished if we all put ourselves on this self created pedestal that you have built and climbed up on.

Todd, I understand your perspective working the job that you do. I understand that any of us that have personal bias, most likely have a justifiable cause for it, but nothing will be accomplished until we can step out of that biased place, and step into a place of increased desire to delve deeper, with a sincere desire to resolve the problems and not just shake our heads in futility.

We are all entitiled to our personal opinions and feelings, and we are sometimes not responsible for what we have been taught or instilled with over our lifetime. I have argued heatedly before, but never took time to realize that there are reasons for your opposing opinions on racial issues.

I guess the secret is for all of us, on both sides to get beyond those reasons and dig a little deeper into working "together" as a species, and not just a race, to get through the problems. I didn't own slaves, so there is no reason for blacks to hate me. The majority of blacks have not been a threat to my family or my wellbeing, so I have no reason to condemn a whole race for the acts of a few. Actually, I served in the military with blacks that covered my ass, and that I would trust with the lives of my kids and family. Ya know the only difference in us while serving in Nam was that they went there dark skinned. I had to be there for several months to get darkened by the heat and the sun. Other than that, we were military brothers, fighting for the same thing, and with the same red blood coming from our veins if we were wounded. They were put in the same aluminum boxes, and were sent home on the same airplane. They lie with honor in military cemeteries nation wide, and there is no distinction in color noted on their grave markers. They were my brothers and fellow veterans, and I love them all.

[thelma]

Clipper - YOU will never change my opinion of the low class blacks that have destroyed our Cornhill area and now working on doing the same in West Utica.

I will agree there are people of the black race that I have been proud to call my friend and I considered them on the same level as I considered ALL my friends no matter what race they belonged to.

Contrary to what you think, I have nothing against any black person that goes to work every day and supports their families and teaches their children the rules and value system of living in today's society, and knows how to speak the English language without any Getto expressions!

But, for those that don't have the same values that I do, or belief in working for a living, or teaching their children respect and manners, they will never be considered my "equal"! I've said it before - you don't have to live in a "nice" neighborhood and have tons of money to keep a clean house and teach your children by your own example the meaning of respect and good manners.

So - you and I will always have to agree to disagree whenever this subject comes up.

[corner]

amen thelma

[dgriffin]

I don't know Clipper all that well, but it's probably just as funny to have him cast as a liberal as myself, I'll bet.
The bottom line here is that if you had a bad experience with someone who is different from you, or perceived to be different from you, you don't like them or their relatives. Sorry, Todd and (I think) Corner, but guys who carry a badge, while highly deserving of my overall respect, see too much of the bad side of people and cannot be counted on for a balanced view of the races. I know and count some as friends many who are COs, PO's and cops. My favorite nephew is a cop in Holyoke, MA, far worse than Cornhill on any day of the week. His opinions are accordingly unbalanced.
I worked in a rehabs for a couple of years and dealt with some pretty scummy characters from the projects in NY City. When you clean away all the bullshit, most humans are the same. They love their mother and they want to buy a new car every few years. You can be like possibly TanouryJ is and try to get to that in people or you can throw up your hands as I suspect Thelma has and just start labeling. The former doesn't always work. The latter never works.

[thelma]

Dave - I am NOT a "social worker" and don't have the educational background to know all the skills it takes to work and help people that need rehabilitation for a variety of reasons.

I have enough to do with making sure my family does not get harmed by the criminal element that is so prevalent in our City. I have not had any "bad experience" as you and Clipper think I have. My opinions are based on what I've seen and heard during the many years I've lived in this City (born, raised and will die in North Utica).

I can remember when people moved to a neighborhood just so their kids could attend the neighborhood school that was located near where they lived. That was the idea setting as kids grew up together and remained friends most of their lives.

Then came the busing and Magnet School concept where kids from disadvantage neighborhoods were bused to the nicer neighborhoods thinking this would motivate then to change their behavior and have a better outlook on life. All it accomplished was more turmoil.

Now, we have ONE High school with 2,500 kids all wedged together like sardines with 3 Police Officers for each Academy floor to break up violent gang fights and keep the violence down as best as they can.

I give all the credit in the world to people that have the patience and skill to help rehabilitate those that truly want help. However, how many of them are actually successful in accomplishing turning their lives around and becoming law abiding citizens again?

[dgriffin]

thelma said:

.....help rehabilitate those that truly want help. However, how many of them are actually successful in accomplishing turning their lives around and becoming law abiding citizens again?

If you're speaking of addicts, damned few. More reason to work to stop the spread of drugs in neighborhoods. I hear ya on the dumb ideas of the past ... busing, centralized schools, etc. We still have centralized schools because of economics. Not yours and mine, but of those who think they know how to educate our children. But that's another thread.

[thelma]

As long as there is GREED and the ability to make lots of money without an education or hard work, there will always be Drug Dealers willing to sell drugs to anyone that wants to buy them.

I just got thru watching American Gangster which was based on a True Story of Frank Lucas - a Drug Kingpin who took care of all the people in Harlem by giving them all the dope they wanted at a price that was affordable to them. This all occurred while the war was going on in Viet Nam - back in the late 60s.

By the time his Drug Empire was destroyed by an Honest Cop, Frank Lucas had over 250 Million Dollars in Assets (government got it all), and 3/4s of all the cops in New York City working in Narchotics (sp?) were arrested for corruption/theft of monies while on the job.

This Frank Lucas was getting his cocaine right from the source - Viet Nam and their poppy fields. He flew the pure cocaine drugs back to the USA in the body bags on US planes.

Very good movie and it goes to show just how much money there is in dealing drugs! Until we can find a way to control drug addictions like they now have with cigarette addition (drug called Chantix) and eliminate the need to buy drugs, then that is going to be the only way to stop the flood of drugs that is destroying our society.

[Disgusted-Daily]

I do agree that I do see more than the average person because of my job. I would like to add that my job also includes Whites, Hispanics, Asians and Indians etc. I truly get to see the bad in all races. I even spent 2yrs in a womens max prison (Never thought they could be so dirty and evil, a real eye opener). I am not sure I have a bias in any certain race other than all races in itself. I see a side of people on a daily basis that a average person could not comprehend.

I have a hard time contributing funds or time into Corn hill resident (includes all above races) that don't want to help themselves or contribute anything into their neighborhood or tax dollars. The so called special treatments should cease immediately.

A perfect example is American Idol, they have raised over 60 million for a race that has not tried to better themselves. What about taken care of our own Country first instead of worrying about other Country's? We have just as many children starving, dying, abused, neglected and with no parents etc. Regardless of their race! How about these Hollywood freaks that can't adopt a child from the US and adopt from another Country? Do they think it is more admiral to crap on our kids here in the US? These people make me sick!

I won't even get into our Veterans who have given the ultimate sacrifice to their Country and are now being shit on. How about American Idol raising money for any of these worthy causes since it is the US that they get all their money and freedom from.

[bobbbiez]

Todd, I do know that money raised by the American Idol is divided and is given here in the states also.


Please don't pick on my favorite show.

[Disgusted-Daily]

I love the show too. I just don't understand why money is always raised for somebody out of the US.

[corner]

i carried a badge until i retired last year and yes my perspective is colored by what i saw but it started wtih perceptions developed in high school and college where blacks got a free ride for an education i worked nights and weekends to pay for at S. U. in my job i have seen all races at their worse but the gang anti white anti police attitudes of blacks and many hispanics apprears to be an ingrained issue passed from generation to generation...and when people talk about racism it is usally described as white racism, believe me most minorities are more racist and exclusive than you think.

[thelma]

Corner - what gets me is even the Press puts a lid on cases of Blacks murdering Whites for fear if starting a riot!!!!! HA - don't they know by now, it is NOT the whites that do the rioting to gain attention. We do it the legal way.

How many people here ever heard of the "Whitita Massacre"? It did NOT get mentioned in any of the major newspapers or News Stations. The only way I found out about it was on a Message Board and posters that lived in Whitita, Kansas where this brutla and savage crime took place.

Briefy, it involved TWO BLACK "Carr" brothers - both with extensive criminal records. They broke into a Condo shared by 5 WHITE Teachers (3 men & 2 women). They forced the men and women to have sex with each other, after the Carr brothers repeatedly raped the women. Then, in the dead of winter with snow on the ground, they took ALL 5 of these people without any clothes on, as hostages in their own SUV to a nearby Football field.

They were all told to lay down on their stomach in the snow. Then, one of the Carr brother went one by one and shot each one in the back of the head - execution style.

ONE woman survived as the bullet struck her plastic pony tail holder which deflected the bullet enough so it didn't go thru her head. She heard all her friends being shot as they laid next to her. After these savage beasts drove off, she made her way across the open field for about 3//4s of a mile and knocked on a house that was lit up with Christmas lights.

She survived and testified against these two at their Trial. Both were caught and arrested within hours of these kmurders and charged with 144 criminal acts for EACH one of them. The Verdict - Guilty on ALL counts - Sentenced to DEATH (which was determined to be cruel and inhumane by the State of Kansas AFTER this sentence).

The details of what these two animals did was the most shocking thing I've ever heard of in my life and I never knew that human beings could be so capable of performing such animalistic acts upon another human being.

IF _ IF this case was based on 2 WHITE brothers doing this to 5 BLACKs, it would have been on every News show, and in every paper, and this entire country would have had more than their share of Riots!!!!!!!!

The word "racist" can fit any situation.

[bobbbiez]

Yes Corner you hit the nail right on the head. Racism works both ways and the way I see it on the streets today the blacks are the ones who are keeping it fired up and then use the excuse of whatever happened to their ancestors in the past to justify their feelings and actions.

I am not a racist or am I prejudice and far from it. Most of the good people on my street are black and are my neighbors, but more important, they are my friends. I bought my house knowing some of my neighbors were black. You tell me what racist will do that.

I treat everyone with respect and expect the same in return. You treat me like sh-t, what do you think you're gonna get back? I don't care if the color of your skin is white, black, green or orange but with me, what you reap is what you're gonna sow.

Everyone, including myself, handles that conception well except some in the black community. They use that word racist too easily and most of the time it's because they have done something wrong and have no other way out of the situation.

[tanouryjr]

I attended a Racial Justice Seminar at MVCC today, put on by Pat Johnson from YWCA. It was a four hour workshop, and went great. Unfortunately, I was the ONLY elected official (or anyone in a policy making position) there. I was very excited to see the entire class of recruits from the Utica Fire Academy there. Then we had several members from the Cornhill communitty there.

We had some very candid conversations and I think everyone walked out learning something new about eachother. What was most disappointing to me was reading the paper and seeing all the politicians attending news conference after news conference, while they could have been at this event. Again, this just shows that they care more about the cameras and press than actually putting in the time to see what the real problems are.

Maybe it's just me, but it's very frustrating, and as Ralph can attest to...it just feels like your banging your head against the wall sometimes.