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Post by dgriffin on Feb 20, 2008 23:02:56 GMT -5
As is often the case, the government is charged with administering a tradition older than government itself, justice. As a people, we have theoretically given government the right to do this in order that it can be accomplished in an orderly manner and hopefully as fair as possible. It is not a perfect process. It is not about deterence. It is not about education of the populace. It is justice. (I keep taking the wrong door and finding myself in the pulpit.)
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Post by frankcor on Feb 20, 2008 23:12:11 GMT -5
It fits you well, Dave. Your argument is compelling and persuasive.
However, this is a clear case where my distrust (belief) of government aligns with my moral faith (belief).
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Post by Ralph on Feb 20, 2008 23:49:01 GMT -5
The sad aspect is that no matter what, there will be no justice for Tom.
Nothing will bring him back.
Putting a "cop killer" in prison is no justice, it's giving the killer the most exalted position they can hope for.
If found guilty he should be dealt with as he dealt with Tom.
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Post by bobbbiez on Feb 21, 2008 0:23:14 GMT -5
Ralph, believe me I truly would like to agree with you on this, but I can't help feeling that if we treat Officer Lindsey's killer the same way, then we are no better then him. Just my belief. Nothing against your opinion. I've had the misfortune of having to visit for quite a few years a relative in many different prisons and being locked up away from family and friends is no picnic or will it be a reward for him. Nothing replaces ones freedom. Nothing. Someone like him with his punk ass attitude will be eaten up in prison. He won't last long before one of his peers cuts his throat. I'm sure you know that keeping someone in prison for the rest of their life is no cheaper then putting them to death. The appeals alone he is allowed will take years to go through and the cost to the taxpayer is equal to cost of keeping him locked up. Swimmy can probably enlighten us on that fact, ( as long as he doesn't want a fee for his knowledge.  |
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Post by Disgusted-Daily on Feb 21, 2008 1:58:07 GMT -5
Ralph, I on the other hand I do agree with your comment "Putting a "cop killer" in prison is no justice, it's giving the killer the most exalted position they can hope for."
This is so true, he will be haled as a hero and looked up to by his fellow convicts. To kill a Police Officer or Correction Officer will greatly increase his status symbol to the highest.
bobbbiez, as young as this punk is I would be willing to bet it would be cheaper to put him to death. If you were to figure approximately $60 a day plus benefits, court trips, hospital trips (ambulance if needed on contract $350), any damage he may cause to property or other convicts and Correction Officers, grievances, frivolous law suits etc etc.
Remember he will be disgruntle (who cares) and will take allot of years and money to break him down to be semi compliant or productive.
Not to take away from your experience but to visit a convict on weekends in a well behaved atmosphere would never compare or would anyone be able to fathom life behind the walls.
Although this experience is harsh and tragic to the first timers and family it is a way of life for most and is considered to be nothing more than a inconvenience. They can and do adapt to living like the animals they portray to be.
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Post by dgriffin on Feb 21, 2008 2:08:55 GMT -5
Bobbi, how can you say, "if we treat Officer Lindsey's killer the same way, then we are no better then him." I often hear that, but think about it. Are we wantonly, without due process, for no reason executing an innocent man? A killer's execution is VERY different from a murder. That said, I am against capital punishment, but not on moral grounds.
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Post by bobbbiez on Feb 21, 2008 4:29:19 GMT -5
Dave, I say that very easily because that is how I believe, morally or otherwise. I live my life with the value of "two wrongs doesn't make it right." To me it's either right or it's wrong, nothing in between counts. There is no gray area in between for me to justify something I might have done wrong. I must have done something right because so far I'm pretty happy with my life and how I've handle myself throughout my whole life. I hate to get so serious or to some sound corny, but I know I only have one person I'll have to answer to and I'm not afraid to meet him some day because of my beliefs and the values I lived by. That's why what I stated came very easy for me to say. |
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Post by bobbbiez on Feb 21, 2008 5:54:53 GMT -5
Todd, I think you will have to agree that most new inmates arriving to their new home with bars, especially the young ones who think they are all bad, will have to contend dearly with the older inmates that have "made" their place already. The older inmates won't welcome them with open arms no matter what crime they were convicted of. Proving themselves on the street to their buddies is a far stretch from proving themselves in the prison world.
Please don't down grade life in prison. No one enjoys spending their life behind bars. I suggest everyone just for a short period of time stay in your house and prove to me you won't go crazy or ask someone who is bed riddened how it feels not to be able to go out of their homes. Ask a former inmate who spent some time in prison how they felt. Not all are animals or feel "inconvenience" behind bars. Some just made a terrible mistake in their live and they paid dearly for it as did their families. Believe me when I say it can happen in any family.
Many tend to generalize life in prison. I find it extremely hard to follow suit. I had visited someone in prison on a regular basis for 16 years and I have volunteered in a prison for just as long and I will not agree that being in prison isn't due punishment.
As far as the compared cost of life in prison to the death penalty I have seen statistics awhile back and I do believe it hasn't changed. At that time of viewing the death penalty cost the taxpayer more.
Hopefully Swimmy can find us some input on that.
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Post by frankcor on Feb 21, 2008 8:37:42 GMT -5
bobbbiez, I want to be just like you when I grow up.
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Post by Swimmy on Feb 21, 2008 8:55:58 GMT -5
Bobbiez is correct. It is far cheaper to incarcerate a person for life than it is to execute him. The justice system is far from perfect and every day there are convicted felons who are later found innocent. Two years ago in MI, there was a big story about a man who served 12 yrs of a 20-yr sentence for sexual misconduct 1st deg. The Thomas M. Cooley Innocence Project looked at his case and re-analyzed his DNA with the DNA in evidence only to find that the man in prison was not the actual perpetrator. I use that as an example of how -- even today -- the justice system makes a mistake.
Fortunately, the solution is simple, release the prisoner, exonerate his record, and apologize for the error. If you killed the person, for the same crime, how do you remedy the prisoner when you realize you killed the wrong person? Perhaps this is one area where morality trumps anyone's sense of justice. Because just as you can't bring back the dead victim, you can't bring back the wrongfully convicted dead prisoner. To reduce the chances of executing the wrong person, that person is entitle to a considerable amount of due process. That last time I checked, the defendant has an automatic right of appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. The defendant has almost limitless appeals, which are very expensive to pursue. In addition, the 8th amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. So the procedure used to execute the prisoner must be painless. Considerable research has gone into finding painless ways that are not too traumatizing to cause a lot of suffering.
Right now, before the U.S. Supreme Court, the current injection method is potentially unconstitutional. In November, the court issued a stay on all executions nationwide until it decides the issue. Apparently some of the serums used do something that violates the 8th. You'll have to google as I can't remember. The Supreme Court outlawed hangings back in the mid-1980s, if I remember correctly.
By the time the criminal is executed, the prisoner could have served his sentence and more. The costs associated with capital punishment are extensive by comparison to imprisonment costs.
And yes, this case seems fairly "black and white" but for every one of those, there are at least 6 that are not. We can never be fully sure that we have convicted the right person. The government only has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and a jury determines what doubt is reasonable. So as long as that is the system, there will always be some doubt as to the criminal's absolute guilt.
There are far worse punishments than death.
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Post by dgriffin on Feb 21, 2008 9:55:50 GMT -5
>>>It is far cheaper to incarcerate a person for life than it is to execute him.<<<
That's like spraying me with a hose and telling me I can't go to the dance now, because I'm soaking wet. Swimmy, your statement is no doubt true, because we make it true.
And, Bobbbiez, I respect your beliefs (they're pretty close to mine) but they don't appeal as a logical argument of the question, "what is the difference between murder and lawful execution." I would be pleased to see capital punishment end in the US, because of the way in which it is administered. But I do not consider it morally wrong.
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Post by thelma on Feb 21, 2008 11:20:12 GMT -5
Bobbbiez - I consider you a dear friend and we have so much in common that we share during our long life that the Good Lord has allowed us to live. Having said that, I would like to respectfully disagree with your objection to the Death Penalty.
I agree that with the present conditions in the States that do allow the Death Penalty there is room for error allowing the possibility an innocent person might be put to death by various mistakes made during the judicial system he/she went thru. This is where I agree with you and no innocent person should be put to death for a crime he/she did not commit and that can be proven he/she is innocent. In the past (before DNA evidence) this has happen - and even one case is too much.
However, the intentional killing of a Law Enforcement Officer (including Correctional Officers) or the killing of a small defenless child in connection with sexual abuse, warrant the death penalty as IMO these are horrendous crimes that meet the ultimate penalty - death!
Since NYS currently hasw put the Death Penalty issue on the back burner "for review" sometime this year, what I would like to see is a modification to the criteria needed in order to put someone to Death.
The main criteria is that DNA evidence would be needed to "prove" the person convicted of the crime is Guilty beyond any "reasonable doubt". Of course, that leaves many cases where there is no DNA evidence available - such as in Officer Lindsey's murder (at least to my knowledge). This would have to be considered by more informed and educated people than me as Officer Lindsey's murderer definitely needs to be sentenced to Death due to the cowardardly way he was executed.
Bottom line I just don't feel our brave Law Enforcement Officers are protected or paid enough for the jobs they do and we need to provide them with stiffer laws and penalties to protect them more than what is currently on the books.
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Post by dgriffin on Feb 21, 2008 11:33:25 GMT -5
>>> Since NYS currently hasw put the Death Penalty issue on the back burner "for review" sometime this year, what I would like to see is a modification to the criteria needed in order to put someone to Death. <<<
Hi, Thelma. Just a comment. For all intents and purposes, there is no death penalty in new york state. Any DA shakes in his boots when faced with the specter of having to prosecute the death penalty. In a case down this way, the DA had to go the the county legislature (now Democrats) and ask for extra money since he needed to hire an extra Assistant DA just to deal with the team of lawyers from Albany, paid for by the state, who would defend the culprit.
Swimmy (if you're listening) whatever happened to the DA in Brooklyn who refused to bring ANY death penalty cases?
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Post by thelma on Feb 21, 2008 11:45:01 GMT -5
Dave - correct me if I'm wrong (which it appears I am) but I thought the Death Penalty issued was brought to Albany this past Summer/Fall and the parents of Officer Carr even spoke trying to get the Legislature to reopen the Death Penalty issue. All that was accomplished was is that they agreed to reconsider reinstating the Death Penalty this June 2008.
This was brought up again due to Officers Carr and Lindsey, and the State Troopers that were killed by that criminal Phillips - all within a six month period of time and all in NYS.
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Post by thelma on Feb 21, 2008 12:40:22 GMT -5
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=2214According to the above Website, reinstating the Death Penalty in NYS is now considered a dead issue. It appears any chance of the Death Penalty being reinstated is nil. What a shame for those that actually deserve this ultimate punishment.
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