Oneida Nation/ County agreement agreed

[Clipper]

I make be taking a shallow view of the situtation, but I am a believer that the land issues and property taxes are a separate issue from sales tax on goods that they sell to non-indians.

It is self serving to defend the lack of collection of tobacco and gasoline taxes simply because it saves US money. I am as guilty as the rest. I used to buy cigarettes from them, and if in the area, some gas, but that doesn't make it right. Actually I have to think that what we cheat the county and state government out of in taxes by buying from the indians, is going to be made up for somewhere else in sales taxes or property taxes. Our infrastructure has to be maintained somehow, and the revenue has to come from somewhere. If we are losing millions in sales tax to the OIN, we are paying those same millions somewhere else, and the indians are the only one's profiting.

While probably not legally appropriate or separate, I can see the indians holding sovereign land, and not paying the taxes on it, but goods sold to non indians should be taxed and the money forwarded to the proper agencies.

I once condoned giving the OIN the benefit of the doubt, but now the enterprises have spread all over two counties, and are really hurting the entire economy of the area's merchants. I guess we live and learn, and circumstances change with time. Property rights and broken treaties are a separate issue from sales taxes.

[bobbbiez]

Sorry Clipper, to me, "property rights and broken treaties are not a separate issue from sales tax" in this matter.

I would like to see the agreement our government came up with and signed to give our Native Americans their sovereign land that states that. As far as I'm concerned if our N. Americans have a business on sovereign land and sell to any customer then who is the state to demand a cut after the fact?

This problem arose now because our government never thought our N.Americans could ever prosper in such a hugh way. Didn't see our government seeking "anything" when our N.Americans lived on their dingy reservations off of their small bingo halls, small cigarette and gas sales. Now, our N.American have "come a long way baby" and our government just wants a cut of the action.

Any negotiations the OIN is more then willing to do should be honored and accepted, cause I believe down the road once the courts make their final decisions the OIN will come out on top and we just might lose all the way around.

[Swimmy]

The answer is to negotiate and settle, something Picente just did. For years before the 2005 Supreme Court decision, those lands in trust now were NOT on any tax rolls!

The answer is to stop bending over and giving the state and county unrestrained access! Where was your grip at Steve Grual and the Vernon Downs when he held the state hostage and shutdown the facility for 3 days? over 300 people almost lost their jobs. Where was your hatred for the situation when the state raced to give Grual the tax breaks he wanted? Is it because he's white no one raised a stink? Was it because he is white and sticking it to the man?

Maybe you should be more upset with the tax breaks we give Walmart, and the Hartford and the 60% of Utica property that is tax exempt?

You still haven't answered the questions I raised. Why not? Are you intentionally ignoring them? What about the points I raised? You didn't even address them, just seemed to ignore them and proceed to your conclusions.

[Clipper]

Gee Swimmy. When ya mention Walmart, and NH developers, and when I think about deals like the Hotel Utica, I have to stop and look at the whole thing from a different perspective.

Also the deal with Vernon Downs. It seems to depend on whether you are politically "connected" or politically "opposed" as to whether you get the tax considerations.

I guess my only problem with the whole deal at this point has to boil down to the mere pittance that the OIN is offering to settle for. Hell, they probably make that much in a week at the Turning Stone (I actually have no idea what the numbers for TS would be, but they must be substantial). All one has to do is watch how many $100 bills are put on the cards at the cashiers deposit windows for a few minutes, and you have to think that "milliion" is not a big number for the TS Casino.

I have always supported the OIN in their legal fight, but I always figured it should be settled with a fairly large settlement and some firm golden covenants in lieu of taxes.

This settlement negotiation should not be dead, just carried further to come to a more equitable settlement. I would think that all that is necessary to negotiate with the OIN is to keep the word "tax" out of the conversation, and find any other name they care to, for the money paid by the OIN.

[tanouryjr]

I guess I'll have to follow what I already know - the majority of people in my district do NOT favor this deal. The vocal minority may want me to believe otherwise, but rest assured that I make many, many calls everyday, including visiting homes, and the people overwhelmingly do NOT accept this.

I am up for election in November, so obviously I'm willing to stake my job on it. If it's that big of a deal, they will kick me out. So be it. At least I'm willing to take a stance on issues and not sit back silently like the majority of the 29 members.

I would also recommend that everyone read the FULL agreement and put your PERSONAL feelings aside while doing it. After 5 years, Swimmy, we are obligated to drop any and all objections to Land-Into-Trust applications. So, if they buy a block in MY district, they can apply for LIT without objection. They owe nearly half a BBBBillion in back taxes and are settling for 8 cents on the dollar.

Also, if at all possible, get out and talk to regular people on the streets and in the coffee shops about what they think. You may be surprised. Again, I am willing to stake everything I have on it.

[tanouryjr]

One more thing...It seems there is a double standard here. OIN is a BUSINESS, and when AIG, CITI, etc. were BAILED OUT everyone was up in arms. Now we are supposed to give the county away because of personal feelings. We need to grow some thicker skin, some principles and some hutzpah around here. What happened to the Conservatives around here? You know, Jefferson Democrats and downright Conservative Republicans?

[Swimmy]

May 10, 2009 10:42:41 GMT -5 Clipper said:

Our infrastructure has to be maintained somehow, and the revenue has to come from somewhere.

The Oneidas have contracted for the infrastructure they use. Who do you think paid to repair the water system in Vernon? NOT the taxpayers.

[tanouryjr]

Here is just one of the many emails and letters I have received. I will not post their name until I get confirmation that it is OK. But this is a Utica resident and constituent.

(Swimmy, did you know the BIA still gives the Oneidas several million per year of your tax dollars? Just a thought, but we are getting WAY off topic. This is about whether the proposed offer before us is fair. That's all)

"We the people thank you for your firm stance on the deal with the Indian nation.

You and your fellow Democratic Legislators who said no deal speak also for the people they serve.
Stand tall and be firm, you are doing a great job serving Utica and we support you.

Thanks again for all you are doing for the little guys who don't have a voice in political decisions that shape the future of our City and County."

[Swimmy]

May 10, 2009 16:03:03 GMT -5 @tanouryjr said:

They owe nearly half a BBBBillion in back taxes and are settling for 8 cents on the dollar.

Please put up some proof to that one! It was not until AFTER March 2005 that OIN property was placed on the tax rolls. 4 years and 3 months is enough time to accumulate $500 billion?! Or is the county trying to retroactively apply taxes to a time period it waived by putting the properties on tax exempt status?

I'm not trying to make you believe anything to the contrary. I take offense to that. All I'm saying is that IF the constituents said to approve it and you didn't then you better start packing! I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You started out saying that you have to protect the taxpayers. That's a hugely different beast than representing your constituents. That's all I was trying to point out.

Everyone is up in arms about the bail out because these businesses should have been left to fail. OIN is NOT a business! It is a Congressionally recognized Indian Tribe that runs several businesses. Big difference from the businesses that scammed us out of tax money! The CEOs of Citibank et al do not lead sovereign nations. The CEOs have not reinvested in the areas their headquarters are situated in.

I really enjoy the scare tactics being used too. "They could buy a block in my district..." Sure they could buy a block. But two things: 1. they would have to pay taxes on it; 2. the county is barred from challenging any possible application to place it into trust, BUT not you, your neighbors, or the state! That of course assumes that the Oneidas will buy up huge chunks of land and apply to place them all into trust...

[Swimmy]

May 10, 2009 16:17:02 GMT -5 @tanouryjr said:

Here is just one of the many emails and letters I have received. I will not post their name until I get confirmation that it is OK. But this is a Utica resident and constituent.

....

"We the people thank you for your firm stance on the deal with the Indian nation.

You and your fellow Democratic Legislators who said no deal speak also for the people they serve.
Stand tall and be firm, you are doing a great job serving Utica and we support you.

Thanks again for all you are doing for the little guys who don't have a voice in political decisions that shape the future of our City and County."

Since you're singling me out and accusing me of something I'm not dong...

I'm not trying to make you believe anything to the contrary. I take offense to that. All I'm saying is that IF the constituents said to approve it and you didn't then you better start packing! I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You started out saying that you have to protect the taxpayers. That's a hugely different beast than representing your constituents. That's all I was trying to point out.

[tanouryjr]

Swimmy, I am definitely not singling you out. I actually enjoy this discourse. If I seem to be singling you out, it's simply because I know you are very knowledgeable on this issue. It helps to debate back and forth. For example, your question on the half a billion dollars. I just made a call and couldn't get a straight answer. So your point was well taken and I learned something. According to this person, even they admit that there are a hundred different estimates depending on who you ask. They seem to think it's about $300-400 million. But that is taking in sales tax, bed tax, property taxes and everything else.

And I always think FIRST about my district. But I have been called parochial and told I should look at the county as a whole. In that respect, I think it is very important to look out for the taxpayers here. Also to look at how this will effect the county in 10, 20, 30+ years. It's not a long-term plan, IMO. I would absolutely LOVE to settle this thing. But not simply because I want a headline today. That is what they did when they gave away our water. That is what they did when they gave away a million and one PILOT programs in NH. It's not long-term planning.

And, according to the law, they are not sovereign. They are a Domestic Dependent Sovereign Nation. There is a difference. That means their sovereign status depends on US. Hence the entire Land Into Trust process. All that does is put the land into the federal government's name and then they allow them to use it.

[Swimmy]

I understand what their status really is. My reference to sovereign was an overly broad simplification. I usually equate their status to that of a state when I explain it to others not as versed in the details.

With respect to the taxes. I also know that the federal government, either the courts, or the BIA, determined that the property could not be assessed as a casino under federal law. So if that estimate includes assessing it as a casino, then chop off a couple extra million.

I say you do what you've been doing, think about the people who elected you and follow their direction. Therefore, if the majority of your constituents are against this, as you have indicated, then you better follow their input. Don't throw that philosophy out the window because you're being called parochial and should ignore your constituents to worrry about the county as a whole. Issues plaguing one region of the county do not always have the same impact on another part. For example, the developers in new hartford want unrestrained development liberties. This affects a large part of your district. If you were to "look at the county as a whole," your constituents would lose out and the developers win.

Rather than reject this plan in its entirety, I ask that it be used as a good stepping stone to advance the concerns you have, such as the waiving of further objections to future land-trust applications.

It seems everyone is getting to partisan when we need the exact opposite. We do NOT need more entrenchment from either side of this. We need cool heads.

I would have been happier if my representative said, "You know, this is a good stepping stone, I commend the efforts of both sides, we would like to tweak it on the following issues I hope there is room for further negotiation so that our constituents will be more likely to approve this deal." Then, at least I would be under the illusion that something positive was happening.

[bobbbiez]

Larry, I'm in full agreement with Swimmy.

I live in Utica and do approve of this settlement, just as many of my family and neighbors are. Don't know what circle of people you're listening to, but have to inform you that just as many you represent are in favor of it.

All I can state is in your personal decision do the best for ALL the people you represent but do your best and be fair to the OIN.

[wcup102]

I have these questions......

Who paid for the renovations of STATE Route 365 east and west of the casino? Who paid for the bridge renovations over the Thru-way and in Sconondoa(Oneida Castle) due to the increased traffic flow and their rapid deterioration? Who is paying for the current road renovations of STATE rt 31 in Verona which appears to be adding a turning lane for state rt 365 westbound(go figure..to heads towards the casino)? Who is paying for the sewer upgrade with the road work? I can tell you this, it is NOT OIN, it is the TAXPAYER!!!!

Call me ignorant, a redneck(cuz I am), or maybe uneducated when it comes to this "back door" deal, but from what I have read and heard about it, the TAXPAYER is getting screwed due to politics and a county executive that wants to put himself in a favorable light when the shit hits the fan. You can't tell me that in the back of his mind he knows this will never pass approval and he probably figures that he can again say "Hey, I tried" when it comes election time.

Of course his popularity as of late may cost him the election and he is "mending fences" to land himself a cushy job with OIN. If the Nation people wanted their sovereignity and tax free status they should have stayed on the reservation lands. If they want to come off their already exempt lands and start a business, they should play by the rules as everyone else.

I am sick of the "political correctness" this country has caved into as soon as someone says they are a minority or a special group of some type or been wronged by a government, or, well you get the point. Close the borders, ship out the illegals, because I'll be damned if the are going to get my socoal security, as it is they are forecasting it will run out in 2037, four years earlier than expected. Make people learn English so they can speak it when they are conducting themselves in public, what they do in their own home is their business and I could care less.

I have decided to make my house into a place of worship and start my own religion.....The Believers Faith Asembly(BFM for short..Born Free American). Then I can receive tax exemptions and join the party. Whatever faith you believe in, you can join.(restrictions apply, no commies or taliban). I have yet to decide what emblem or insignia to use but I am favoring the Bald Eagle wrapped in an American Flag and an M-16 clutched in its' feet.

Bottom line, they are off the reservation, using our resources which our tax dollars support, running a business which is subject to the normal tax levies and they should pay. If they want to call it a "covenant payment" then so be it. But collect it and make sure it dollar for dollar like everyone else has to pay on a regualr basis. DO NOT forgive back taxes, I mean covenants and collect them as well. It is past time where people need to pull their weight and get rid of the entitlement mentality. Survival of the fittest. If they don't pay, auction it for back taxes starting at 8 cents on the dollar for value.

[Swimmy]

May 12, 2009 19:40:06 GMT -5 wcup102 said:

I have yet to decide what emblem or insignia to use but I am favoring the Bald Eagle wrapped in an American Flag and an M-16 clutched in its' feet.

Isn't that a special forces insignia? Maybe the Rangers?