Oneida Nation/ County agreement agreed

[tanouryjr]

I guess this is where I differ greatly with Swimmy. This is a horrific deal. Hallibritter is to be commended for waiting this long until he finally got the worst of the worst in the CE position, so that he could take absolute advantage of him.

Without regurgitating all of the finer details that have long been litigated and will still be litigated, which is exactly what the courts are for. This deal is embarrassing. We are getting 5 cents on the dollar here. And, as Arcuri stated perfectly, in 10 years we'll be right back to square one. It's not a long-term vision. It's a short sighted political/money grab for the CE. When asked what we do after the 10 year payments run out, Picente said "We shouldn't be worried about 10 years from now. We should only care about the next 10 years." Not very long term. He says we need to "move forward." I'd be "moving forward" if I were in a barrel heading toward Niagara Falls too! But I'd be heading to my demise.

In this instance, I take the 100% CONSERVATIVE stance. BAD DEAL!

[dgriffin]

Thanks, Swimmy, it's complicated, but you explained it well.

[rodwilson]

I think that Larry is dead on here. This wasn't a deal, it was a hostage negotiation. The Oneidas win, win, win. $55 mil ain't what it used to be and won't go very far at all. Then on top we create a "quazi" sales tax and they keep the proceeds for what was is it governmental blah blah blah? Who's going to run that program? There is NOTHING positive in this deal for the residents of the county.

It's an absolute shame to be relying on the Oneida Nation to "bail" Oneida county out. I agree 100% that we need to collect ALL the sales tax due us. The law is clear. Business within the nation is tax exempt, when you cross over and sell to non-Indians, tax should be collected and paid out. This is not at all unreasonable. Oh yeah, I'm a Mohegan Indian and have strong opinions on the whole "we were here first" position. The whole we get a free pass position is wrong! Sovereign or not, there's no way the Nation got to where it is today without the help of Oneida County and it's residents as well as the rest of America. They're not growing that tobacco on their grounds. It should be taxed and handled like any other import.

This wasn't a negotiation, it was an ass-kicking!

[bobbbiez]

Rod, Just a little something I'd like to add as a smoker. I don't care where the hell the Indians grow the tobacco, I appreciated the break I got from them for the price of the cigarettes they sell. Don't care if you are a smoker or not, the taxes on cigarettes are totally outrageous for those that do enjoy smoking.

[rodwilson]

Understood. My point was that this is a product that they do not themselves produce and therefore should be treated like an import.

As far as the taxation on smokes go, I've got little problem with it. I am a former smoker and I'm very familiar with the costs of smoking on a personal and social level. The burden that smoking puts on non-smokers is unfair. Higher premiums and certainly higher medicaid and medicare costs so I feel that the tax is at the very least just. Tobacco exists solely for profit and no only in spite of addiction but also designed to create addiction.

[Clipper]

People will live a lot longer if they tax tobacco right off the market, LOL. I tell Kathy that every time she bitches about how much she misses cigarettes. They are only $25 or so here, but it still was an expense of 3 cartons a week when we both smoked. I figure I saved at least $100 a month by quitting, AND I CAN BREATHE AGAIN! Kathy only quit a year ago, and she says she misses it. I damned sure don't I don't miss having ashtray breath, and yellow teeth, or the raunchy taste when you get up in the morning, coughing and gagging. Not only that, my clothes don't smell like she dried them over a burning trash can anymore either. LOL!

[Swimmy]

The nice thing about representative government is that if enough people like me tell you, larry and the other politicians involved to vote in support of this agreement and you don't, the lot of you better start packing before November! :-)

But I think that it is best we agree to disagree at this point, if for any reason, because I'm taking this a little too personal tonight to keep my personal emotions separate from the substance of debate.

[tanouryjr]

Swimmy, I sure hope it's not personal. You know I have an immense amount of respect for you, and usually agree with you. I was actually hoping to get a deal that I could support. I was even willing to comprimise quite a bit. But this is one of the worst proposals I've ever seen. I have absolutely NOTHING against the OIN. I actually have a Turning Stone card in my wallet. But as an elected official, I have a duty to protect the taxpayers. The jobs aren't going anywhere, the venues and amenities are still open for all to enjoy, and property/sales taxes aren't being lowered if this is passed. So what do the taxpayers get?

As for packing in November; believe it or not, a $5,000 poll states that an overwhelming majority of the people of Oneida County support the Oneidas paying a yearly sum, every year, no matter what they call it. The people of Oneida County are very upset at this offer, despite what the Oneidas' six digit PR campaign will tell us in the coming weeks. I would assume that they have done their own polling, and seen the same results. Why else would they be spending so much lobbying the public instead of simply lobbying the 29 legislators? They know the public doesn't agree with it.

This is akin to when Utica gave away the Water Board for a short sighted money grab, with no long-term revenue stream. It seems all we learn from history is how to repeat it.

[bobbbiez]

Rod, won't argue the points about smoking, but it is not illegal and I happen to enjoy it. Just as other people enjoy drinking or whatever floats their boat. The point I'm making is that the government is over taxing us for everything we enjoy and it has gotten terribly out of hand. Damn, if I can get a break on the price of a pack of cigarettes I'm going to use it. If I'm buying my cigarettes on Indian land then I don't feel I should be taxed.

I'm no different then those with recreation vehicles, boats and etc and can buy their gas cheaper with the Indians. None of us are Donald Trump and try to save where ever we can, especially since our government just keeps taxing everything in sight and out of sight.

Do I buy "the burden that smoking puts on non-smokers is unfair and the reasonings for higher premiums for medicaid and medicare cost?" Hell no! If it isn't smoking our government will find another reason to tax us and raise the prices of just about everything. When the hell is everyone gonna wake up to that fact. They will tax the air we breathe if they could pass off a reasoning for it.

[rodwilson]

I hear you bobbiez. I'd be an outright liar if I said I never took a ride up 5 to grab a pack or two. And who wouldn't shave a buck where they can? The ability for them to sell untaxed really puts everyone at a disadvantage. Except the Nation. They mark it right up to just less enough to get you buying. All that tax revenue is lost at every level.

And smoking related illness accounts for 14% of Medicaid costs. Prob a little higher here given our higher smoking rate. I don't at all discount your taxation points. Understood and agreed. Keep your hands outta my pockets people!

[Swimmy]

Can someone please provide the statistics for the number of businesses that have left the area because of taxes? Also, how about the number of businesses that looked to locating in the region but chose another venue that was business friendly? Since the close of Griffiss, taxes -- miraculously -- have increased steadily despite the obvious shrinking population. And of course, the Vernon Downs Racino held the state legislature captive until the state reduced the level of taxes it had to pay. Most of the investors pulled their support for the Racino before the tax rate was reduced. From that backdrop, how can anyone competently declare that by violating the Oneidas' sovereignty and forcing them to pay taxes the jobs and venues will remain?

And people so think that taxes will actually go down ought to stop by my apartment, I have a windfarm that will produce 30% of the world's electricity to sell them and a bridge to connect Europe to America too.

Larry, your duty is to your constituents, not the taxpayers. If the majority of your constituents direct you to vote in favor of this pact, then you have a duty to follow that position to the end. Please don't change your motto of looking after your constituents to protecting the taxpayers when you disagree with something.

Additionally, how much is the county receiving from the Oneidas in tax monies? Zero? Approving this pact will insure the county it will receive $55 million over the next 10 years. Though my undergrad degree is in Computer Science, my years of law school and practicing law have eroded my math skills. But I'm pretty sure $55 million is more than zero!

How many millions have we squandered in legal fees for the several lawsuits?

And in 10 years, you can re-negotiate the deal. Hopefully, by then, a lot of the tension created by both sides will have subsided. And perhaps in 10 years our own economy will have revived enough so that we won't have to rely on the Oneida Indian Nation to drive and support it.

I agree that most county residents would prefer a yearly fee. That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that IF the majority of the county residents direct you and the other 29 legislators to approve this pact and you don't...

This is a start in the right direction. You don't think that in 10 years you would not be able to negotiate turning that rate into a permanent matter? Perhaps over the next 10 years, we could convince the Oneidas to turn the silver covenants into a permanent nature. The only problem here that I see is that the county wants taxes and nothing less. The Oneidas are willing to pay anything but taxes because they refuse to waive their sovereignty. What's the problem?

[rodwilson]

So the answer is to just let them slap us up and go about their business taking money from the pockets of local businesses? That's a solution? The competitive advantage is unreal but then again that's how we do things in the OC.

They hold us hostage because people in the OC lack any type of real spine and are willing to lay down for a crumb of bread. We bow to them because they used their tax status to create fortunes and we have now become the one looking for a 'handout". Nonsense. Enforce the laws and lets elect some leaders that have some real solutions to solving our problems, not looking to hitch onto someone else's wagon.

So we walk with $30, they give us $2.5 a year. What do you really think that buys? Might cover the tax break we give to the Wal-Mart dist center, that's about it.

So for $55 mill we give them how many of acres of untaxed land? Plus the ability to add more land, plus they want a GREAT sales tax deal and a liquor license and we deputize their police? Is that going to come out of County funds? C'mon are you kidding me? Explain to me again how we win? By laying down and saying OK? Picente should be nothing less than embarrassed by even bringing this to the people. Where does the economic development aspect come in? They continue to to thrive and offer locals "jobs" at their enterprises?

Sometimes it's not about a dollar but in doing what's right. If this county lies down on this I'll be packing before the ink dries on the "deal". This is bullying to beggars. The OIN sovereignty applies to nothing other than their financial goals.

So keep begging and holding on to your "hopefully" and see where that gets you, the rest of us are working for change.

[rodwilson]

Oh...and with regard to the liquor license? That should help them to cover that $2.5 million handout every year. Esp if they can add a third product to their nontaxables. Gas, smokes and alcohol. Hmmmm....

[concerned]

The legislators for the County are supposed to vote for what the people in there district want.NOT FOR WHAT THEY PERSONALL WANT. Ask the people what they want and then vote on what they want. Our government is getting away from the people who put them there. As soon as re-election come's up they come back to us and ask us how they can help us. Then they get re-elected and do there own thing.

VOTE FOT THE DEAL THAT OUR COUNTY EXECUTIVE WORKED SO HARD ON. At least Picenti is doing something for the county he represents I can't say that for the legislators.

[bobbbiez]

As I stated before , God is blessings our Native Americans, and what goes around comes around. It's their time to glow in the sun. Who would have ever thought it?

The only thing I will suggest is our legislators should take notes, work with, and learn from the OIN and just maybe we will all prosper as they have done.

Lets face it, no matter what amount of monies we get from the OIN, our legislators will only pi** it away and we'll still pay through the nose for everything! Plus, costing us all legal fees to fight in court what the OIN will eventually rightfully receive.

Now, whose the dummies? Not hard to figure that out.