I support raids in all 50 states too

[Swimmy]

www.uticaod.com/homepage/x1720671015/Legislators-show-support-for-Indian-owned-cigarette-shop-raids

I support raids on cigarette shops in all the other limited sovereignties making up the United States of America. That's what they're saying, right?

[dgriffin]

“We are calling on the governor of this state to enforce the law,” Hennessy said.

Amen to that! But governors lately think they get to choose what they enforce.

Oneida County Executive Anthony Picente, who has been an advocate of negotiating with the Oneidas, said he’d have to learn more before doing what the other counties have been doing. “Until we know more about it, I don’t think we should take any type of action,” he said.

Don't know the guy, but it sounds like typical waffle from a politician.


Oneida County District Attorney Scott McNamara said he wanted to do more research before commenting.

Now that's really funny. Can't find his way through his law library?

[Clipper]

I have to think that this is a dangerous road to go down, sending armed law enforcement officers into a business to STEAL their inventory. Don't we think it might be prudent to wait until the legality of the sales tax and the sovereignity issues are settled before we put on our combat gear and bust into a convenience store?

I am jealous. I wish I was an Oneida. They seem to have the formula and the governing body to succeed in business without falling into the mess the rest of the country's economy is in.

What do I think about the battle with Oneida County? I think we should dissolve county and state government, and be annexed by the Oneida's. We might even succeed economically, and not see all of our money going into the pockets of crooks and miscreants.

Native american industries across America succeed by using good business sense. Not just gambling and cigarette sales. Indians in other areas are into builiding log cabins, trucking, logging, agriculture, and other areas of industry. They succeed and they pull themselves out of poverty and despair, by HARD WORK. That seems to be a concept forgotten by other ethnicities lately.

Has anyone ever given any thought to the idea that the way to shut down the Oneida Indian Nation's business is to BOYCOTT those stores? If the people of Oneida County REALLY are serious about the sales tax issue, they should just stop shopping there and the stores will close. Simple answer. Wake up hypocrites. Probably half the people bitching, buy their cigarettes there or have someone buy them for them.

You can bet your ass when I am in the area, I FILL UP at the Savon in Verona. Maybe if NY lowered the taxes on cigarettes and gas, I might not find it necessary to patronize the OIN either.

[dgriffin]

Wait a minute, Clip, I am indeed on thin ice here without the facts, but any group of people who derive so many economic benefits from a government and in fact are allowed to run gambling operations illegal for the rest of us would almost HAVE do well. That's not a business philosophy the rest of us could follow.

[Clipper]

I think the only fair way to deal with the tax issues of selling to non indians is for the state or county to set up checkpoints where you leave the OIN land, and collect the tax from the customer. The indians are doing nothing wrong in selling the stuff on their own land. It is the customer that is "smuggling"the goods back onto state and county jurisdiction. Prosecute the person purchasing the goods, not the OIN for selling it. This country was built on free enterprise.

Are we going to raid convenience stores here in Tennessee because NY citizens are buying cigarettes here and bringing them into NY? NO, we arrest the offender, not the sales person.

I kinda doubt that Tennessee merchants are going to check a drivers license and collect Oneida County sales and cigarette taxes to be forwarded to Picente if the purchaser lives in Utica or Rome NY.

Y'all don't seem to see the downward spiral this greed is taking. We are going to push the issue until there is armed conflict right here in the US. Don't be surprised if someday, someone busts through the door of a OIN business, and tries to seize something, and finds themselves being blown back across the threshold. Come into MY house, armed, and try and take my possessions and that is the fate that awaits you here.

It is time for the political morons of Oneida county to negotiate. The OIN is willing to do so, and it is only Picente and others, that supposedly represent OUR best interests that are refusing to sit down and work out and alternative to this continued expensive pursuit of a battle that will be ulitimately lost by the county.

It is an emotionally charged issue, and there are two sides to the story, but if you look at it rationally, the OIN has sovereignity. If we start going onto sovereign land with raids, we are not different than some think Bush was in invading Iraq.

[dgriffin]

OK, but I don't believe in the sovereignty of the Oneida nation, nor any tribes. It's been too many years. I'm an American, and if they don't want to be, having the same rights and obligations as I, then they should apply for green cards.

[dgriffin]

We may be the only nation on earth that has allowed a sovereign country to exist within our borders. And if there was a good reason for that at one time, it has long since worn out.

[tanouryjr]

Just my two cents here. I know this is more of an emotional issue for many than it is a practical one. I know I'll probably differ with many on this, but clearly the law has already been established here. The highest court in the country has ruled that they must pay taxes. There is no such thing as complete sovereignty. It's called Domestic Dependent Sovereignty, which means their sovereignty depends on the U.S. government allowing and regulating it. The OIN has virtually conceded this by the simple fact that they applied for Land Into Trust, which places the land into the hands of the Federal Government.

Furthermore, as our founding father stated, you can not have a country within a country. I certainly understand the emotions surrounding the historical issues. However, the African-Americans were surpressed and promised all kinds of compensation (land) after slavery. They aren't suing us for land and the ability to not pay taxes.

Many people also argue that the Oneidas have done it all on their own, so leave them alone. That's simply not true. They have received over $30 million from the BIA (our tax money) and still receive roughly $4 million per year from the BIA (our tax money). Imagine if you received that much money and didn't have to pay taxes or follow the law - you would be able to build an empire too. We are our own worst enemies here. I would LOVE to be able to work with the OIN. They have a wonderful enterprise there. But they will NOT negotiate in good faith. We don't have leaders with the courage to take them on. So we need to enforce the LAW.

As a matter of fact, the Gaming Compact was ruled illegal. Therefore, they are actually operating illegally. They will dispute that based on a LETTER stating that it is valid, but a LETTER certainly doesn't trump a court ruling. I understand the jobs arguement too, and certainly would NEVER want them to shut down. But I can make the arguement that drug houses create jobs in my district too. But that would be foolish; dealing drugs is ILLEGAL. They owe hundreds of millions in taxes and we sit back and do nothing while raising taxes on the hard working people of Oneida County. It's time we step up and DO SOMETHING.

[tanouryjr]

Also, the county has seen a dramtic increase in the amount of contacted services we pay for in relation to treating people addicted to gambling. That's right, you are paying to treat a disease that was virtually non-existent 10 years ago. The Oneidas don't contribute to this, but do not have a problem taking their money.

[Clipper]

Well Larry, as much as I respect you and love your politics, I have to differ with you on this issue. Yes, HISTORICALLY. We TOOK the land from them. Their "sovereignity was violated in the days of Miles Standish and John Smith.Their sovereignity was violated in the trail of tears and the battle at little bighorn. It was slowly violated and they were slowly defeated through no fault of their own, starting on the east coast and pushing them progressively onto reservations or slaughtering them for our own pale white convenience since the beginning of red and white interaction back in the days starting with the settlement of Jamestown Va.

The argument that there can't be a sovereign nation within another nation is bull too. WE were the nation that sought to gain sovereignity in a nation that belonged to the native americans. Hell if it weren't for the pacific ocean, we would have pushed them onward all the way to Hawaii. Then we would have discovered that they had pineapple and would have killed them for the rights to market that commodity.

I know that it is a losing battle for the OIN. Why? Because they are at the mercy of OUR courts, that were established on THIER land way back when, with no regard for their rights.

I sympathize with ALL minorities that have been mistreated and persecuted. You mention African Americans. Well, they have no right to sovereignity. They were not native to the US. Whites enslaved them in Africa and brought them here. They have issues with the way they have been treated, but have no rights to the land. The land was not STOLEN from blacks, it was stolen form Native Americans.

I am not an indian, and I have never played one on tv, but they damned sure have my support, having known people of Oneida heritage for many years while they were persecuted and stifled by those as close as the City Fathers of the city of Oneida and the politicians of Madison County and Oneida County.

[dgriffin]

Nov 27, 2008 12:39:35 GMT -5 Clipper said:

The argument that there can't be a sovereign nation within another nation is bull too. WE were the nation that sought to gain sovereignity in a nation that belonged to the native americans.

The difference is that we fought and won. The Indians fought and lost, more than a century ago. It's over. They are no better than us and should obey the law. I have to , why shouldn't they?

[Ralph]

Not to get into the OIN debate right now, but just to point out a historical perspective.

In all the wars the US has participated in, whether before or after we became the US; and in all the lands where we fought and won and in many instances had the option to stay....

......this is the only one where we came, we saw, and we conquered.
Then took and kept what we wanted for our own.
But to the victor goes the spoils I guess.

But we won't let any other country do it.

I imagine that at the time, the natives here were weaker and less sophisticated compared to us. Sort of like many of the developing nations that come under attack from others now.
You know.......the ones we run off to defend now?

Anyways...............As much as I do believe the OIN is in their rights in many instances, Larry is right about there needing to be a clear cut enforcement of the very laws that they used to get to where they are. They have used the laws to their advantage when they needed to and have chosen to ignore the others when they want.

I do think we could learn a lot from them though. despite what some may feel is an unfair advantage, they have built quite an empire from mud and sticks.
And I am sure if they were still living in the mud and sticks, the State and the Counties could care less about them still.

The biggest reason they are mad at them as they beat the politicians at their own game (no insult Larry, you know where I am coming from here)!

[Clipper]

We have to, but they should not have to because the your great grandfather wasn't killed so that the government and white folk could steal the family farm. I guess maybe they are simply trying to STEAL back what we stole from them, and recoup their losses by not paying the taxes to those who have oppressed them.

I have to think that if taxation were more fair, and the moneys were spent more responsibly, they would consider paying it. I myself hate paying the gasoline tax, and I used to hate paying cigarette tax too. Why? Because it kept climbing and climbing every time there was a short fall in the budgets formulated by the crooks that govern. If my money were used properly, and I benefited from it, I would gladly pay taxes without a grumble, but when they use my money to pay for crap like the EDGE contract and to give developers a break on THEIR taxes I object strenuously.

Have you ever seen the original 14 acre reservation in Oneida? If you had lived there for a while, I am sure you would also tell the county to stick their taxes in their butt too, when you managed to drag yourself up from that, and have success in business and real estate purchases.

The OIN didn't drive anyone from their land or kill them. They BOUGHT the land, and paid a damn good price for it too.

Does anyone realize how much cheaper taxes would be if we only paid and received the necessary services that the tax system was put in place to provide for?

If our taxes in NY state were spent properly and efficiently, there would be no need for agencies to push for jobs and development because jobs and people would not have fled the area in droves due to the high costs of living there.

Where is their any common sense in paying crooks like Dimeo and the EDGE people when we can't pay our hardworking sheriffs deputies a fair wage? I guess the Oneida's are simply avoiding funding the foolishness that is Oneida county politics.

I almost envy those that are able to avoid the foolishness that is government in NY state. I love my country, and I love NY state, but I have to sympathize with the OIN, whether what they are doing is in line with whiteman's law or not. They have a couple of things in their favor that the rest of the state doesn't. They are governed by people with good business sense and common sense, and they get something for the money that their government collects, instead of the take take take like our state and county government, who in turn gives it to patrons and friends while taking it from the common middle class.

[Clipper]

Dave, reading back a few posts, you say YOU are an american, and if they don't want to be, they should apply for green cards. I have to differ with ya on that point. WE are ALL immigrants of one sort or another, and THEY are the only true Americans, native, indigenous and born here since long before Europeans "invaded" and took the land from them.

I have to play devils advocate in this case. I know it is not a popular opinion, but it is MY opinion that this is not a case of "reparation" such as what the black descendants of slaves might lobby for. This is a just and fair issue that should be negotiated in good faith. Sovereignty is claimed by the OIN, and the right to tax them is claimed by the county and state. Our claims are based on OUR laws. Their sovereignty is claimed under THEIR tribal laws.

The US gave them rights to sovereignty on their reservations. The problem now is that they have managed to bust out, make enough money to expand those reservation lands. Should WE be able to dictate how much land can be held by the tribes under their own sovereign rule?

If native americans have the right to govern themselves on their own tribal lands, then why are we disputing their right to sovereign rule on lands that WE the whites are selling to them in good faith, knowing that they are native americans when we sell to them, and knowing that they will become tribal lands when the deed is signed?

Should the indians be allowed to form pockets of sovereign lands within the borders of counties and states? I guess if we want to sell it to them, they should.

As far as gambling problems. The OIN doesn't make compulsive gamblers. The people do that to themselves. I am a recovered alcoholic, but the owners of the the taverns where I drank didn't make me a drunk, I did. Nobody forces anyone to patronize ANY of the OIN enterprises, but plenty of Oneida county residents make their living from the coffers of the OIN.

Let's face it. The OIN has done ten times as much for providing jobs and development and promoting tourism than any other entity in the area. Government or otherwise. Y'all should be kissing their butt, not fighting with them.

It is funny that the two most hated entities in the area, are the largest employers. Walmart and the OIN.

[Clipper]

I guess this is one of the issues where the diverse crew we have here on the forum is the basis for many different views and personal opinions. I am not an educated person by any means. I have a two year degree in accounting and business, and I have never worked in THAT field. I have managed, I have driven a truck, I have been a professional firefighter and paramedic, but I have not furthered my education to the point of some on this forum. I have been a heavy equipment operator, and a machinist, and I have traveled the world, but I have not studied political science or law.

We have swimmy who is a lawyer, and Dave who is highly educated and has taught, and Larry Jr, who is in politics and I am sure has been educated to the max, and researches all issues that he addresses before opening his mouth. We have Frank who is an engineer, and we have housewives, insurance company employees, farmers wives, retired nurses, theologians, and business owners.

The diversity here is wonderful and educational. I learn something every day from reading the posts of others or from discussing issues of interest.

My thoughts and posts are usually based on my own logic. Not on law or rules or what someone else might deem proper.

I seem to fall into a position of advocating for the oppressed or mistreated. I seem to sympathize with the minority more than the majority. I have grown to hate aristocracy in my old age, and I hate those that advocate spending tax money on frivolous crap when there are poor people and needy causes that should be addressed ahead of political interests of the rich.

So forgive my opinion of the laws that "govern" our position of opposition to the OIN. It is OUR laws, and favor OUR interests, in ruling the land that WE STOLE from the indians. A very few native americans serve in the halls of congress, and NONE formulated our constitution or signed it, or our country's original bill of rights.
They are governed by laws that they had no input in formulating.

Native Americans were treated like vermin that stood in the way of white progress, and they were mistreated and eradicated at every turn of the road. So if they are breaking the laws of the land, maybe the laws of the land need to be changed to conform to the needs of ALL Americans with consideration for misdeeds of our ancestors.