I support raids in all 50 states too

[dgriffin]

I guess I'm just a law and order guy and I feel we all should be obeying the same laws. When we don't like our laws, we change them, not ignore them. I believe Larry established that the Oneida's are NOT a truly sovereign nation. While I certainly sympathize with the plight of Indians and Blacks of 100 years ago, I think we have to act according to the era in which we live.

I was thinking that if a neighbor of mine told me he had found a slick way to avoid paying his taxes, although the government disagreed, but he figured he could avoid payments forever through the use of legal counsel, I would tell him that I resented his behavior. And more so when he explained that he felt justified doing it because of what the government did to his great grandfather 100 years ago.

Should the indians be allowed to form pockets of sovereign lands within the borders of counties and states? I guess if we want to sell it to them, they should.

I'm not sure how you meant that. You don't think they should be able to form a sovereign entity anywhere they want to buy property, do you?

By the way, here's the latest in the Seneca saga, where the tribe is exacting payment from homeowners who are refusing to pay money to stay in their homes. In this case, it's only $300 per year, in other cases it's been a much higher amount.
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE7DB103BF937A15750C0A961958260

Banner v. United States, 238 F.3d 1348 (Fed. Cir. 2001), aff'g 44 Fed. Cl. 568 (Fed. Cl. 1999) (Seneca Nation entitled to evict homeowners who built homes on land leased from the Seneca Nation for $1 per year when their 99-year leases were up and those owners refused to agree to pay market rents for the property).

Here's an interesting article from 2002, "Indians, Politics, and Money," at:
www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=9056421D-F32B-434A-AE2E-1E809ED0A5AE
It's not particularly favorable toward the Clintons.

My understanding is that casino "grants" were utilized in the Pataki administration to encourage Indians to lay off regarding the eviction game, which severely depressed upstate New York real estate values, as well as threw people out of their homes.

Another interesting piece, "Give It Back to the Indians?" at:
www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_give_it_back.html

On balance, I think the Indian issue can be played a lot of different ways. In none does any group or person come out an angel. But I do not believe in reparations. I know unfairness has attached itself to progress at times in our history, and I think that is regrettable. But when we allow distinct classes of citizens ... be they American Indians, African Americans, Muslims or Martians ... to separate themselves from the rest of us and ask for special favors, we are definitely marching in reverse.

[bobbbiez]

Not much more to offer since this argument between the OIN and the government has gone on far too long now and no one is the winner.

Will state I TOTALLY agree with Clipper on this issue. Couldn't have said it any better.

Was also very proud to see the OIN in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade representing our area. ;D

[Ralph]

To be honest, I don't think that this issue will ever be solved in our lifetimes. And to be more honest, I don't even care.

New York State has held taxpayers over a barrel for decades and continues to mis-spend and the raise taxes across the board to pay for its mistakes. So if the OIN can skirt the taxes, good for them cause I would as well!

I have friends in Indiana where we are planning on moving who own a $300k home. They pay about $100 more a year in taxes on it than I do on my house in Utica which is only assessed at $32k.
Something wrong with that picture?

As far as a gambling problem that we have to pay for.......well Clipper is right, no one is holding a gun to anyones head to drive on out there and spend their kids college fund or their retirement on slots or blackjack.
But the taxpayers get stuck with the tab because the State says we have to fix them!?!? Bull!!! More mandates to tax us to death for.

I truly love New York, and our old broken down house, but I can't wait to get the hell out of here.

[dgriffin]

Nov 28, 2008 3:31:24 GMT -5 Ralph said:

To be honest, I don't think that this issue will ever be solved in our lifetimes. And to be more honest, I don't even care.

Amen to that! Hahahahaha! There is so much baggage dragged along with this issue, from fairness (to whom?), to the law (for whom?), to poor government (for everybody!)

[Clipper]

I know what you are talking about with the taxes Ralph. I thought we were paying $700 a year, but Kathy says it is only $490 for property taxes here, total. We paid close to $3000 in Utica for a comparably priced property.

You are also right Dave. There is a lot of baggage to drag along with the issues and you are right on with the observations of fairness to whom, the law for whom, and poor government for all.

As far as paying for the gambling problems caused by the casino, we pay for drug rehab, alcohol rehab and mental health issues, so why not gambling? I don't think that the gambling problem is as deeply rooted in the area as the drugs are. If it is, it is probably people that were playing high stakes backroom poker, or going to Atlantic City anyhow and can't be blamed solely on the OIN. Irresponsible people don't need to be coddled. The OIN didn't make them dumbasses, it just gives them a place to be a dumbass without driving 4 or 5 hours. If they aren't spending their money at the casino, they would be buying scratch offs and lottery tickets or playing the horses at OTB. Before the Turning Stone there was plenty of card rooms in East Utica that sucked up the grocery money of the addicted gamblers.

I guess I will always be defending the underdog. I just am built that way. I have sat by for all of my 62 years and watched people's human rights and civil rights being violated. I simply sympathize with the plight of minorities and side with them, right or wrong in the eyes of the mainstream opinion.

Plenty of arguments to justify both sides, but as we have said. It won't be settled in our lifetime, and neither party is going to concede defeat.

Have a good day guys. I have to get out of here, and start getting my quarters together for my trip to the turning stone when I am in Utica, LOL.

[lrtill]

I don't usually respond on these types of posts as I am not educated in politics or government, but I live in Verona, the OIN is my neighbor. I wish I'd always had such neighbors! I think they are entitled to the sovereignty they were assured so long ago and if anything it should be broadened to allow them to really make their own decisions on what they do on their own lands without intrusion from the US government. I am an American and believe in my country whole heartedly as it stands today in world politics, but I am not in any denial of how our ancestors got this "land of the free". Talk about ethnic cleansing! We damn near wiped out the indigenous people of this continent. What would it look like today on so many levels if they had not been invaded by our ancestors.
I also agree completely with Clipper's well said arguments. And in response to those of my neighbors with the NO LAND INTO TRUST signs in their yards, I say - IT'S ALL THEIR LAND, GOD TRUSTED THEM WITH IT!

[lrtill]

I don't usually respond on these types of posts as I am not educated in politics or government, but I live in Verona, the OIN is my neighbor. I wish I'd always had such neighbors! I think they are entitled to the sovereignty they were assured so long ago and if anything it should be broadened to allow them to really make their own decisions on what they do on their own lands without intrusion from the US government. I am an American and believe in my country whole heartedly as it stands today in world politics, but I am not in any denial of how our ancestors got this "land of the free". Talk about ethnic cleansing! We damn near wiped out the indigenous people of this continent. What would it look like today on so many levels if they had not been invaded by our ancestors.
I also agree completely with Clipper's well said arguments. And in response to those of my neighbors with the NO LAND INTO TRUST signs in their yards, I say - IT'S ALL THEIR LAND, GOD TRUSTED THEM WITH IT!

[lrtill]

SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST - COMPUTERS!

[dgriffin]

That's a really good post, lrtll,and I agree with the sentiment, though I think it is one sided. I don't think we can right the wrongs of past centuries by surrendering to land grabs on the part of people whose ancestors once owned the land. Or for that matter, speculators "representing" their descendants.

I suppose it might depend upon the number of years that have passed, before we say, "OK, times up! No more sympathy." Otherwise, today's Indians would have to settle the claims of an even older people before them who populated what is now the United States. And then, after the Irish got Northern Ireland back from the Brits, they'd have to give it back to whomever is left of the Celts wherever they are today, since there may be a few of them left in Hungary and the northern plains of Kazakhstan.

I can't imagine what was going through the minds of the white people who demeaned and cheated the Indians out of their property so many years ago. Nor can I imagine what forces drove Indians to typically rip off the genitals of dying Union soldiers after each battle. Or for an afternoon's fun, raid a white settlement, kill the men, rape the women and carry the children off into slavery. I guess today we'd call the "braves" delinquent and disadvantaged. But hopefully somewhere, our great great great grandfathers have answered for these sins.

If I had a time machine, I would carry today's newspaper back to the folks who farmed the borders of Indian land in the 1800's and ask what they thought of their tormentors' great great great grandsons demanding the return of fur trapping land to build casinos. Or maybe I'd just hand the O-D to the nearest farmer and run.

[Clipper]

One might say they were raiding those settlements and killing those farmers in an attempt to get their hunting lands back and to keep the whites from "raping" the environment and killing all their buffalo simply for the hides. don't tell me that when Indian villages were raided, that white soldiers didn't have their way with young indian maidens.

I heard they only took the genitalia off of the ones that were bald headed, because they could not get a decent scalp. I guess I will wear a cup when I go to the turning stone in the future, just in case I piss someone off. Somewhere along the line, they already got a small round scalp off the back of my head while I was sleeping.

Native Americans were simply people who lived off the land and it's resources, and were very territorial in protecting that land and it's resources.

Have ya ever seen the Cherokee Strip, North of Oklahoma City? Not what you would call a fair trade for Western North Carolina and its bountiful resources and animal population. I had a job offer in Oklahoma City when the base closed. My answer was that when I was there for 6 months working at our headquarters, I MADE SURE I DIDN'T LEAVE ANYTHING THERE THAT I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK FOR! I wouldn't give ya 10 cents for 10 acres of Oklahoma.

How can we justify the fact that the Oneida's were given a whole 14 acres for a reservation? Pretty small pickings for an entire tribe of people who once occupied and hunted the whole central NY area. The western band made out somewhat better, but not much.

This is one of those subjects like what individuals deserve help from DSS and what one's don't. What racial groups are discriminated against and what ones are simply sucking from the system.

As far as raiding villages, raping women, and taking children into slavery, it sounds like the Drug Cartels that do business in the US today, except they use heroine and meth instead of wampum. You can buy the drugs or if you don't pay, they rape women or take thier daughters into prostitution and slavery, or kill them.

When I condone sovereignty, I don't see the Oneidas forming a whole different country or nation with their own military, or fighting OUR military.

The thing is this. The Oneidas are willing to pay for services received from the county and state. They choose to pay through covenants rather than taxes. Yes, this is not in line with OUR laws, but OUR laws are changed every day,depending on what politician is behind an effort to change them, and these issues are negotiable at some level or another.

I think that most that live in Verona area, will have to admit that the town has received much more from the nation than it has been forced to give to them. The whole damn area has darn sure benefited from the employment opportunities brought about by the tribe's building and expansion projects, or the tourism dollars brought to the area.

Before the OIN and the Turning Stone, Verona was simply a Thruway exit with access to Rome or Oneida. There was nothing there to get excited about. I lived there for a period of time and you had to shop in Rome or Oneida. Verona was no bustling metropolis, and commerce there was limited.

The Oneidas have damn sure put more people to work and brought more money INTO the area, than they have put out of work and caused dollars to be lost FROM the area.

I say give them what they have now, and move on. Simply limit further expansion of lands into trust and negotiate payments in lieu of taxes and go from there. It amounts to negotiating to allow the reservation to be expanded to a fair amount of land in trust, apping it at that amount, and ending the battle. I think in the old days they called it a TREATY. It amounts to collecting the tax from those that patronize the OIN stores and businesses, and making THEM pay the tax. No other state has to collect NY sales tax and send it in, why should the OIN?

[lrtill]

I'm sure many horrible things were done by both sides those many years ago, Dave. We are now, however, living in a "civilized" society and the Oneidas are not the ones being greedy. They deserve all the wealth and power they have worked so hard for. I think Mr. Halbritter one of the most intelligent, business savvy, legal - smart men of our time. He has started the wheels turning in the direction of prosperity for the Oneida people who had nothing a few short years ago. Maybe I'm just a sap for the Native American values portrayed in the movies but I think they as a people have a better understanding of and respect for the land than the "American" businessmen who have plundered and polluted it for the last 200 years. They would undoubtly, in my mind, have been better stewards of the land. If they can buy the land at fair market value and the seller is willing to sell it to them, I think they should be able to make it a part of their "nation". They may not want to pay "taxes" to our government but are willing to "share the wealth" through their grants. Who cares what it's called! They have done a tremendous amount for Verona and surrounding school systems but they don't blow their horn about it all the time. I don't believe the amount they would have paid in "taxes" under our calculations would have been more than their generous grants.
Just my opinions and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about the issue. "Why can't we all just get along!"

[Clipper]

Oh well lrtill, at least here at the "corner" we DO all get along. We won't see any of this settled anytime in the near future I am afraid. At least we can disagree without angst or anger here on the forum and it is good to know that we have differing opinions without fighting about it in an angry manner.

I have found that many times there is discussion even though nobody is going to change their minds, but understanding or points not known by one party or the other still is gained from the exchanges.

I just have to think that with a "friendly" relationship of cooperation, there would be endless bounty to be gained by the Verona area and for the whole CNY area by working out monetary payments of some sort instead of continuing the battle that goes on now. The OIN is making money right now as we speak. Why not have a relationship that would foster "sharing" instead of mandating and taxing. How is the rest of the county doing economically right now? Hmm. Not so good huh? I bet if the relatinship with the indians was better, there would be support to develop the airport at Griffiss, and money to do it with. It would benefit the casino to have charter flights going into Griffiss instead of Syracuse. Does Oneida county realize that the casino alone could bring passenger service back to the area? Once there was any sort of service to the area, the charter flights would boom, as they do in Connecticut and Atlantic City, NJ.

[dgriffin]

Especially since I don't live there in the MV (although we have Indian Casino "Raids" down here frequently), I'm not in a position to judge the current negotiations in regards to who is taking advantage of whom. And yes, lrtll, there's no question both whites and Indians were terrible to each other in the past; my prior post was meant to balance yours, not to pronounce white innocence.

Still, I am generally not in favor of honoring ancestral claims. Of anyone. Life is for the living. A unique feature of America when it was formed was the outlawing of titles and their passing on to heirs, as well as an inheritance tax which was intended to give poorer families a leg up on wealthy dynasties (even though it is killing farmers today.) The idea was for each generation to begin anew, because that fosters industry and economy. We want our culture and society to encourage everyone get an opportunity, not their grandfather's land. That was Washington's intent when he made each Indian a US citizen at the end of his term. (That must have been before anyone realized we'd be stealing ALL their land!) So, although a grant of land to a tribe may be fair on occasion, for whatever reason, we cannot honor all the claims unless we want to risk civil revolt.

[bobbbiez]

Dave, I believe you are a very knowledgeable man and I have learned from many of your posts, but on this subject I feel you should read up more about our Native Americans.

More massacres took place by our government. Our soldiers massacred entire villages under the directions of the maniac, insane General George Custard and he was just one out of many that we should be ashamed of.

We constantly hear about the Holocaust when in fact more American Natives were slaughtered then those in the Holocaust.
Our Native Americans haven't crammed it down our throats. Our government didn't care about them when they were forced on poverty reservations but yet when our Native Americans pulled themselves out of poverty and became successful our government now wants a piece of the action. That's bull sh*t!

Treaties were signed and agreed upon many moons ago and now our government is trying to find "loop-holes" out of all.
Believe me, we will never see any benefits from the money our government is trying to "weasel" out of our Native Americans.
I only wish we would learn from our Native brothers and stick together as they do and tell out government, "enough is enough!"

I will and have supported their efforts and will continue to support them. Hopefully, others will follow the precedence our Native Americans are setting, so we can take some control over all the bull sh*t our government is cramping down our throats.

Oh by the way, our Native Americans were given the title of, scalp takers, when in fact it was us that started that gruesome act and they just followed our example but for different reasons. An Indian's scalp brought in good money back then.
It was and still is always about the money with our government and not for the benefit of all of us.

[dgriffin]

I don't disagree with you, Bobbbiez. Gruesome is gruesome and it occurred on both sides, which was what I portrayed in my post. Altogether separate from that is what should be done about lost native lands here in the 21st century. With few exceptions, I am not in favor of honoring claims.