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Post by JGRobinson on Mar 28, 2011 16:59:18 GMT -5
Ray is a principle but the real success story here is the Oneida's themselves. Long after Hallbritter is gone, the Indian people in their Sovereign Nation will receive the fruits of their labors. They fought and paid for it, they deserve it.
The OIN has a right to be successful here, we don't have the same rights. As FA points out, we refuse to fight for whats ours, the right to compete with any foreign Government running a business in our own territory.
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Post by bobbbiez on Mar 28, 2011 17:30:50 GMT -5
Ray is a principle but the real success story here is the Oneida's themselves. Long after Hallbritter is gone, the Indian people in their Sovereign Nation will receive the fruits of their labors. They fought and paid for it, they deserve it  Without Ray, they would not have succeeded. Remember, even many of his own people in the beginning did oppose him but finally came to see his ideas as best for them. He proved himself right to his people and to all of us. I recently visited some of my Native American friends on the new reservation and it is absolutely beautiful. These are the same friends I visited on the old reservation which was worse then a city dump. They do give Ray all the credit for waking them up to having a better life and working together to gain it. Gotta give the man all the kudos he earned for his people.  |
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Post by firstamendment on Mar 28, 2011 17:35:36 GMT -5
I wouldn't go that far. I've been saying for a long time now, compete. The old adage, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Legalize gambling in this state and compete. Someone give me a logical explanation why gambling is illegal. I wasn't kidding on that. ;D If gambling was made legal then the politicians couldn't get their hands on all that profit and would have to share what they monopolize now. they could via taxes. But not on the level they currently benefit from. RoAnn Destito case in point. |
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Post by stoney on Mar 28, 2011 18:38:17 GMT -5
Discrimination against a Native American group is no different than that against any other "different" people. This country has been involved in the same since it's inception, whether it be based on ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, physical abilities (or lack thereof), age, blah, blah, blah. It saddens me, because in the greater scheme of things it means zilch.  |
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Post by JGRobinson on Mar 29, 2011 8:21:22 GMT -5
Discrimination against a Native American group is no different than that against any other "different" people.
So true, we just love categories, classifications and racially profiled mis-characterizations. Everything labeled and put in neat little boxes; a shelf for good ones and another for the bad ones.
I saw it daily in our area when I was growing up. Not too many non Caucasians in Madison County 30 years ago, the Indians were about the only target for Bigots locally. I had a few friends that were Oneida's. The crap they took was way too cliche and almost scripted, they are now big Whigs at OIN Enterprises, nobody is picking on them now!
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Post by JGRobinson on Mar 29, 2011 8:25:01 GMT -5
"nobody is picking on them now", OK I lied, The Republi-Crats in Albany and a few UCE leftover Stalwarts are trying to pick on them, unsuccessfully. That's not worken so well for them though, The OIN has our laws on their side, as it should be!
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Post by firstamendment on Mar 29, 2011 8:45:25 GMT -5
I guess people forget the only TRUE Americans are the Native Americans. Everybody else was imported.
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Post by JGRobinson on Mar 29, 2011 9:45:44 GMT -5
How true FA, I guess at one time, we were as bout as different as the Native Americans had ever seen!
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Post by stoney on Mar 29, 2011 10:53:30 GMT -5
The smartest thing Halbritter did was bring in some big cheeses (technical term  ) from Vegas & A.C. to get that casino started, while using their recommendations for improvement as the money started rolling in. I think a couple of the original guys are still there (Riolo, for one). Without their expertise in how successful, large Vegas-style casinos are operated, I think TS would never have made it. I remember opening day for local "dignitaries" only. It's surprising the politicians that were there at that time to celebrate (while putting in a word for their relatives who were looking for employment), but eventually turned on the Oneidas with a vengeance (Townsend). |
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Post by Swimmy on Mar 29, 2011 12:21:45 GMT -5
And finally, that douche's political career came to an end!
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Post by JGRobinson on Mar 29, 2011 18:01:02 GMT -5
Amen to Townies bye bye!
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Post by JGRobinson on Mar 30, 2011 5:00:25 GMT -5
To be fair, all Oneidas don't like Ray, there are a couple groups of them that disagree with him, fight him tooth and nail. Ive also been told by more than one, support Ray or parish! Some are Elders in the tribe totally disapprove of him, thats the reason he never will be Chief.
I support his efforts because they help all of Central NY even if you don't like his ideas and plans. He did bring in the Boys from Vegas to show him the ropes, that makes him a smart guy, our political leadership rarely seek professional guidance, they know it all and do what ever strikes their fancy, then fail us and do the Alfred E Newman shrug!
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Post by dgriffin on Mar 30, 2011 6:14:42 GMT -5
Couple of thoughts. Americans are not perfect, but by and large I'd say we tend to believe in fair play when it comes down to it and to discriminate against minorities TODAY far less than other nations discriminate against their minorities. Japan is just one example, and we could cite many countries in the MiddleEast. I could add more European states if we were to recognize a difference between the the stated opinions of the politicians and the people.
Despite Swimmy's eloquent defenses of the Oneidas, I have always questioned the wisdom of allowing a defeated people to lay claim over a hundred years later ... either literally as by the Senecas or by special considerations such as taxation... to the property of the descendants of those who vanquished them. Fair fight aside, of course. Legal points aside, too. That's an unpopular opinion I hold on this forum ... seemingly, since I'm seldom joined in it ... but I own it and it's mine.
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Post by Swimmy on Mar 30, 2011 7:09:31 GMT -5
But you can't just set aside legal points and fair fight to hold that opinion because without them then the proposition doesn't hold water. Nothing changes the fact t hat the Oneidas' predecessors were forced to sell the land because they were poor and needed the money. Nothing changes the fact that New York State ignored established federal laws and treaties. Nothing changes the fact that the Courts have recognized that the land is still Indian Territory under the definition of federal laws. Nothing changes the fact a treaty 200 years old is still in effect to this day. I could go on.
Not a fair fight against the Oneidas' predecessors or them. And now that they have managed to climb their way out of poverty, the state will stop at nothing to put them back in that position, even if it means continuing to ignore federal law! You can't take apart an entire puzzle, pick two pieces and claim that is the whole picture because it defeats the whole purpose of the rest of those pieces that are essential to understanding the picture it represents when all the pieces are properly in place.
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Post by dgriffin on Mar 30, 2011 8:31:25 GMT -5
But you can't just set aside legal points and fair fight to hold that opinion because without them then the proposition doesn't hold water. Nothing changes the fact t hat the Oneidas' predecessors were forced to sell the land because they were poor and needed the money. Nothing changes the fact that New York State ignored established federal laws and treaties. Nothing changes the fact that the Courts have recognized that the land is still Indian Territory under the definition of federal laws. Nothing changes the fact a treaty 200 years old is still in effect to this day. I could go on. Not a fair fight against the Oneidas' predecessors or them. And now that they have managed to climb their way out of poverty, the state will stop at nothing to put them back in that position, even if it means continuing to ignore federal law! You can't take apart an entire puzzle, pick two pieces and claim that is the whole picture because it defeats the whole purpose of the rest of those pieces that are essential to understanding the picture it represents when all the pieces are properly in place. Yup, all good points. You're a good lawyer, Swimmy. You see the logical fallacy in my argument. But I'm not arguing. At one time I drove through the reservation south of Syracuse quite frequently on my way to SU and I did some reading on the Four Corners tribes at Mesa Verde in the Southwest. (I had planned to teach there, but family illness interfered.) I'm familiar with the despicable treatment the Indians suffered at the hands of the white man. I just don't believe in special treatment of groups. And I know you don't see it as special treatment. |
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Without Ray, they would not have succeeded. Remember, even many of his own people in the beginning did oppose him but finally came to see his ideas as best for them. He proved himself right to his people and to all of us. 
) from Vegas & A.C. to get that casino started, while using their recommendations for improvement as the money started rolling in. I think a couple of the original guys are still there (Riolo, for one).