New Hartford court might move

[dgriffin]

>>> In your example it was mostly the Mrs. Jones type teachers that left. Mostly because they were young enough that they could more easily get around the step rules you mentioned. This left a disproportionate amount of the Mrs. Ratskinner types in the district.<<<
That's a good point against my No.3, but it works against the idea that older teachers are better teachers and therefore should be paid more.

[nhcitizen18]

I don't disagree with your point, there should be more of a performance based pay system...if there is actually one that works. I haven't seen any really good way to objectively measure teacher performance yet.

Until the day that union rules and merit pay change on the state level local schools need to do what they can to retain and recruit the best teachers. I'm not 100% happy about it, but if the price you pay for recruiting 20 or 30 Mrs. Jones types is keeping 1 or 2 Mrs. Ratskinners thats a price I'm willing to pay until State Laws change.

I had a couple questions regarding some of your other points:

""2. such a published schedule would show the large differences in individual salaries among teachers, especially when longevity amounts are included.""

Where I work (and everywhere I have worked for that matter), the people that tend to make the most money are the most experienced, senior members of the company. I would have thought that was true for most companies...is there a reason why school districts should be any different?

""1. the salaries are usually higher than many of the taxpayers, and especially when comparing family incomes, re husband-wife teachers""

I would assume teacher salaries should be higher than the average salary in communities that do not have a lot of high paid professionals working there. I remember reading (sorry I forget the link) that only 25% of the American population has a Bachelor's degree or higher. Teachers in New York have Master's degrees. If you don't pay them in a fashion that is somewhat commensurate with the additional time in school and money spent on 5 1/2 years of post high school education you'll have a terrible teacher shortage. Hell the shortage already exists for areas like Math and Science.

Should a husband and wife that are both teachers be treated any differently than if one was a teacher and the other was in another profession? I'm not really concerned with houshold income....thats a decision of the individuals concerned. As long as the individual teacher salaries are fair whether its a household of two teachers, teacher/doctor, teacher/lawyer, teacher/plumber, teacher/accountant makes very little difference to me.

[dgriffin]

Hi NHcitizen:
I don't want to find myself in the position of defending the rabble!

Some thoughts:
>> I haven't seen any really good way to objectively measure teacher performance yet.<<
Agree. In my working career, I often faced the same problem with employees and their work, but had more clout in making performance decisions because of backing from my executives, something school principals unfortunately lack.

>>...people that tend to make the most money are the most experienced, senior members of the company. I would have thought that was true for most companies...is there a reason why school districts should be any different?<<
No, but your example presupposes merit, either by skill or experience or both, and we've established it's very hard to grade the teachers.

>>I would assume teacher salaries should be higher than the average salary in communities that do not have a lot of high paid professionals working there. <<<
Yes.
>>If you don't pay them in a fashion that is somewhat commensurate with the additional time in school and money spent on 5 1/2 years of post high school education you'll have a terrible teacher shortage. <<
I'm not sure that has been historically supported by the facts. Most teacher surveys show teachers listing "time off" as the major reason for choosing their career. And, indeed, most taxpayers resent the salaries for the contracted hours worked. Yes, teachers do put in more time than contracted.

>>I'm not really concerned with houshold income....thats a decision of the individuals concerned. <<
I may be a bit dated here. Teaching jobs afford the opportunity for a couple to obtain two professional incomes without babysitting costs and concerns, latchkey arrangements and snow day hassles.
Some years back, this was a particularly unique arrangement. It might be the only professional employment a wife might easily obtain. The teaching family's combined income would be compared in a neighborhood to other families with a single income from the husband.

As I look at myself and my feelings toward the local school district to which I pay taxes ... counting some of the teachers as friends, by the way ... I have mixed emotions. I consider my district to have quite a few dedicated professionals as well as goodly number of dolts. My frustration level mounts when I routinely hear that my taxes are going up because teacher salaries increased according to a contract signed IN THE PAST and the public was not involved in that. I get upset when we vote down a capital improvement project and it comes right back at us like a shell game a few months later to vote on again, changed very little from the original package. I get pissed when I vote down a budget and am told my kids will now have to walk 2 miles to school if I don't vote for it in another go around. I've gotten more respect from muggers. I become incensed when told that Driver Ed will no longer be offered and the money instead spent on a curriculum that more addresses "diversity." (I made that up, but I'm on a roll. )
So, I can well understand the frustration of taxpayers who are barely able to pay their mounting taxes while they lose control of the one institution that supposedly is under "local control." And don't get me started on the state!

[nhcitizen18]

As I look at myself and my feelings toward the local school district to which I pay taxes ... counting some of the teachers as friends, by the way ... I have mixed emotions. I consider my district to have quite a few dedicated professionals as well as goodly number of dolts. My frustration level mounts when I routinely hear that my taxes are going up because teacher salaries increased according to a contract signed IN THE PAST and the public was not involved in that. I get upset when we vote down a capital improvement project and it comes right back at us like a shell game a few months later to vote on again, changed very little from the original package. I get pissed when I vote down a budget and am told my kids will now have to walk 2 miles to school if I don't vote for it in another go around. I've gotten more respect from muggers. I become incensed when told that Driver Ed will no longer be offered and the money instead spent on a curriculum that more addresses "diversity." (I made that up, but I'm on a roll. )
So, I can well understand the frustration of taxpayers who are barely able to pay their mounting taxes and losing control of the one institution that supposedly is under "local control." And don't get me started on the state!

Point well taken Dave. I can understand your frustration. I increasingly find myself frustrated with many branches of our government for various reasons that I won't get into under this topic. However when I look at the things that most frustrate me I find that I have a LOT of issues with the way our state and federal government operates. I have usually seen school districts and school boards as among the most responsive government agencies I have ever had contact with.

Tax increases occur...but at least you have a vote in school districts. Capital projects can be resubmitted, but you still have the right to vote no on them again. I wonder how many pork laden federal propositions would pass if every one were up for a public vote in the same manner? I usually find that school board members are trying to do their best in an era where the state and federal government continually tell schools what the MUST do...but don't provide any money to do it with (special education and NCLB come to mind).

Every time I look at the deductions in my paycheck I get upset about the stuff I am paying for that is of little or no use to me. For whatever reason I guess I am unusual in the fact that payroll taxes bother me quite a bit but I have never much minded my property taxes. For some reason (maybe psychological I don't know) people around here seem to fixate on their property taxes and gloss over income taxes. Maybe that another result of an increasingly geriatric region.

[dgriffin]

>>Maybe that another result of an increasingly geriatric region.<<
Yes, that's true, but it isn't just your region. It's true throughout the country. Those of us on fixed incomes feel the pinch the most. Assuming you are still working, when you look at an increase in taxes in your paycheck (besides social security), you are likely looking at a simultaneous pay raise. That's because the feds and state don't vote tax increases anymore, but instead push costs down on localities and that translates into higher property taxes. Plus, in New York state, we have the highest duplication of state and local services in the nation (per conversation with NY State Ways and Means committee employee.)
OK....it has been an interesting and worthwhile exchange with you. I hope to meet you at the Clipper Clambake our administrators are organizing for this summer.

[nhcitizen18]

Would be happy to share some clams with ya. :-) Take Care.

[frankcor]

nhcitizen, I know and it's likely denise knows you never pointed her out. I used her name as an example of someone who thinks taxes are too high in New Hartford, something I think we both think is a valid opinion for an individual to hold. It's my blame for not making that clear up front.

You do have a very valid point that if CC already possesses the salary schedule, why do they want the names attached. As I've pointed out here and elsewhere, Ed Wiatr has demonstrated that conserving his own time and that of government administrators is clearly not a high priority for him.

But the fact remains, the law insists that public records must be made available when requested. Doesn't it make you just a little bit curious why the district has still not provided the documents that we know they all possess? If I were on the New Hartford school board, I'd be riding the superintendent until he followed the law, just to avoid giving CC one more thing to bluster about.

One minor point about using averages to compare teaching salaries from one district to another. In your list above, Rome is shown at $51,000. When I was on the board a decade ago, the average was $55,000. Since then, a lot of teachers have "aged-out" and that significantly reduced their average salary. I see now it is rising again. Making valid comparisons between districts also requires knowing how much of the compensation is off-schedule such as education credits, stipends for additional duties and in vacation, sick and personal leave days. In the example above, Mrs. Ratskinner also has 80-100 hours of post-graduate work under her belt as well and districts pay a premium for knowledge and training too, as well they should.

School boards are notorious for giving away money that doesn't show up in the salary schedule. I've had those fights in the parking lot after the meeting. They also will give away things that have zero cost to the naive taxpayer like including the name of the health insurance carrier within the teacher's contract. It's free! That is, until a future board tries to reduce costs by seeking competitive bids and changing carriers. Surprise! You gotta re-open negotiations. (that was a near-stroke moment for me, I recall)

Unfortunately accurate comparisons between school districts requires a detailed analysis and a presentation that most taxpayers are unwilling to sit through. A simple way that comes close is to subtract the Capital portion from the total budget and divide by the number of students. You might be surprised to see that the poorest performing districts also have the highest cost per pupil. But the reason has very little to do with teacher performance. Sorry, I wish there were a better answer.

[frankcor]

I discovered demonstrated effective ways of conducting authentic teacher performance evaluations. They don't require state legislation. I even solicited legal opinions that they are legal in New York despite the Taylor Law and tenure rules. They are aimed at bringing sub-standard teachers up to standard or moving them out of the system. I am no longer on a school board because I am incapable of convincing enough people to grow the ... er ... wherewithall to implement authentic evaluations.

I could never be a public school teacher in NY despite my keen interest in it. If I were a fourth grade teacher and the third grade teacher in my school was lazy, incompetent and stupid yet continued to get the exact same pay raise as me every year while I fixed her failures ... forgetaboutit.

I'll take a few dozen raw, make the rest steamed.

[denise]

I'm not feeling "attacked" by anyone. Really.

I probably should have said many people in New Hartford feel like they are being taxed up to the eyeballs. I sincerely was trying to be tactful!

I really don't think they are overtaxed. I am sure that there are alot of other places similar to New Hartford that have higher taxes! I currently live in Watertown, NY. Many people do not want to live within city limits because the taxes are high. We pay approximately $4,000 a year in taxes on a 1000 sq ft house just because we are located in a desireable neighborhood. Oh well. We really like where we live but have outgrown the house. We're looking to move outside the city, but many areas outside of Watertown have high taxes, some higher than what we are currently paying and offering less amenities.

I used to live in New Hartford. I think it is a great community, and if I moved back to the area, I would probably want to live there again. No, I don't have children, but I would never begrudge a teacher their salary. I think the work they do is hard and their dedication to their profession is strong. Anyone who thinks that teachers only work 5 or 6 hours a day really needs to get a clue, "IMHO". Asking for individual salary information is ridiculous, and I would assume the only reason a person or group would want individual information would only be for the purpose to harass. And, no, I am not a teacher nor is anyone in my family a teacher. I just call them as I see them.

As far as a larger court facility in New Hartford. They probably are out of space and do need to move to a bigger facility. It should not have to be an underhanded move on the part of village or town officials, but I believe it should be a well thought out plan and done as inexpensively as possible. Maybe now is the time for Town and Village of New Hartford to share not only a court facility but also town/village offices. I see that set-up quite a bit in Jefferson County. I see no reason why a situation like that just wouldn't work out well for everyone involved.

[nhcitizen18]

""I discovered demonstrated effective ways of conducting authentic teacher performance evaluations. They don't require state legislation. I even solicited legal opinions that they are legal in New York despite the Taylor Law and tenure rules.""

You've piqued my curiosity. Do they happen to exist electronically anywhere on the internet? I'd love to peek at em.

[frankcor]

How'd I know you were going to ask that. Give me a little time. It was back in the mid-90s, maybe even pre-google. I've got to dig through some boxes to find it.

denise wrote: "Maybe now is the time for Town and Village of New Hartford to share not only a court facility but also town/village offices."

Blasphemy! Burn the witch!

denise, it's clear you've ben away from Oneida County for too long. Pack yourselves up and get your fanny back here. You can pick up a fix-er-upper for a song. Heck, just claim you're going to start a business and hire 1000 people. You can get interest-free loans and pay zero taxes for 20 years. The best part is, you never have to pay back the loans nor hire a single soul.

[denise]

frankcor said:

denise wrote: "Maybe now is the time for Town and Village of New Hartford to share not only a court facility but also town/village offices."

Blasphemy! Burn the witch!

denise, it's clear you've ben away from Oneida County for too long. Pack yourselves up and get your fanny back here. You can pick up a fix-er-upper for a song. Heck, just claim you're going to start a business and hire 1000 people. You can get interest-free loans and pay zero taxes for 20 years. The best part is, you never have to pay back the loans nor hire a single soul.

Ha ha. We have a program like that up here. JCIDA or something like that. They lend to everyone and their brother who say they want to be a business owner and then a year later are left holding the bag when said business owner skips town. It's a pretty amazing concept, if you ask me.

Seriously though, sometimes common sense gets the better of me. I just can't help it. I take it that Oneida County municipalities aren't into consolidating and/or sharing services or space??

[frankcor]

It is to laugh, denise.

Check out the state's Commission on Local Government Efficiency and Effectiveness. Most of the meat is under the Local Initiatives link.

The governor sent a letter to local officials asking them to identify initiatives to consolidate and make themselves more efficient. I've copied the entire list submitted by Oneida County below:

Shared Financial Officer: Considering a shared municipal accounting officer for the towns of Whitestown and New Hartford to improve oversight and planning

That's the list. One (count 'em) item. What's that gonna save us? Probably nothing if it happens and I don't recall ever hearing anything further about it.

Does that answer your question?

[Swimmy]

denise said:

I take it that Oneida County municipalities aren't into consolidating and/or sharing services or space??

Are you kidding me?! That would mean towns and villages would lose their identities. Since when would having one police chief be better than 4? Why have one 911 center when two keeps more people employed?

[froggy]

swimmy said:

denise said:

I take it that Oneida County municipalities aren't into consolidating and/or sharing services or space??

Are you kidding me?! That would mean towns and villages would lose their identities. Since when would having one police chief be better than 4? Why have one 911 center when two keeps more people employed?

Yeah and lets not forget, one of those 911 centers cannot handle cell phone calls. And its anyone's guess which one it is.