New Hartford court might move

[Swimmy]

New Hartford court might move

This has been talked about since late September. So if the paper is just publishing this article today, my assumption is that this is a done deal. I remember someone telling me that after the town voted down all 8 bond proposals (I agree with strikeslip, but wished that the people who exposed the questionable recount did more than just blog about that one), they were going to work on moving the court house in a manner so as to prevent the town residents from being able to shut down the town's attempt again. I believe it was one of the bond proposals that was voted down last March. Anywhooo, it looks like the town will be getting its wish: a new courthouse and no way for nh residents to stop it.

[frankcor]

In a representative republic, such a move is legal. But it's not the style of governing that I could ever endorse.

I know of at least one school district that has gone as far as giving a plot of land that they owned to a private developer who built a new school and then signed a 99-year lease with the developer, all without triggering the need for a public vote.

[Swimmy]

They wonder why groups like Concerned Citizens exists. It's behind the scenes politicking like this. If there was an actual need for such a move then there would be no problem. However, this is a pet project of one town official. I doubt whether they have thoroughly thought out the impact of moving the courthouse to the proposed location, e.g. traffic flow, parking, security, prisoner transport, etc. Realizing these issues after making the change only costs the taxpayers more. But I suppose for a bunch of officials who think that we exist to feed their grand delusions of being kings or gods this is the perfect move and who cares about the petty residents.

[nhcitizen18]

I tend to agree with Frankcor on this one. It is not really the style of governing I like either. However if it is done properly it's not the end of the world to me either...there are many other problems in this community and this nation that trouble me more.

If Concerned Citizens would stick to issues like this instead of trying to FOIL and publically post teachers salaries they might actually have a modicum of respect. As of now I'm not aware of a single thing they have done that has improved my life or the life of anyone I know. After seeing who they ran for school board I'd vote for anyone running against them no matter who they were.

[dgriffin]

Down here in nearby Catskill (town of; village of) School District, the school board was embroiled in controversy when they wanted to sell an unused elementary school site to Walmart's developer for inclusion in a shopping center that many members of the community did not want in their town. The Anti group told the school board that a majority of voters disagreed with the plan to sell the property to Walmart (probably true), but the board said it had a fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers to sell the property to the highest bidder. Eventually, they did, and now there's a Walmart in Catskill.

[denise]

New Hartford residents are taxed up to the eyeballs; it doesn't surprise me at all that many people are not in favor of anymore spending.

Is the Town/Village Court really out of space at their current facility on Kellogg? If so, I can see why they'd want to move into something bigger.

The powers that be shouldn't be doing anything underhanded in order to accomplish what they want or need. Why add insult to injury?

[frankcor]

nhcitizen, I usually try to avoid making intent an issue in public policy discussions. Intent can never be used as a valid argument because questioning an opponent's intent can never be used to advance one's own argument. But in this case, intent seems to be the cause of the argument and so I'd like to examine it a bit.

Concerned Citizens seeks to publish the names and salaries of the all the teachers in the New Hartford school system. Some of those teachers and those who support them have written that CC's intent is to stir up anti-teacher sentiment within the community in order to advance their political position that the school board must be replaced because spending is out of control.

I'll agree it is a scorched-earth tactic. Those who, whether through jealously or just an honest belief as expressed so eloquently by denise here that they already pay too much in property tax will see the salaries and become outraged. Others, I imagine you are included based on your past comments, will shrug and say "you get what you pay for."

I tend to lean towards the value side of the argument. Yesterday I met with a group of students from New Hartford and it's clear the reputation the schools enjoy is well-earned. Those kids would make any community extremely proud. I will admit that their parents have probably contributed to their great hunger for knowledge, but it's clear their teachers have been able to challenge them and enrich their learning opportunities. You don't get those kind of results from hiring the lowest bidder.

Can anyone tell me why teachers are so opposed to Concerned Citizen's efforts to publish their salaries? Is the opposition simply a confirmation that the scorched earth policy is going to be effective? Or am I missing something more obvious?

Historically, New Hartford teachers and parents have been able to garner enough support to pass school budgets and elect board members who learn toward the value side of the argument rather than candidates that are more concerned with the price side that I imagine Concerned Citizens would support. Is the opposition based upon a fear that the price side will grow stronger than the value side?

One thing everybody should be able to see -- every time the district, whether through negligence, incompetence or intentional obsfucation, blocks a valid FOIL request, the price side gets more enraged and more motivated to pursuade others to their side. Why not just take the hit, counter it with a campaign that demonstrates the value those taxes provide, and move on?

And every time a backdoor tactic is used by government, the more they risk a voter backlash. This town official may be able to enjoy his new court house, but it may be as a member of the public, not as an official any longer.

[nhcitizen18]

Frankcor,

I am not a New Hartford teacher so I do not want to speak for them, but I am a New Hartford parent and have a vested interest in keeping a quality school district. I might have mentioned it in a previous post, but I have been through this kind of crap before back in Nassau County in the school district my brother once taught at. There were some negative malicious people in that district who did not like a decision of the school board so they enacted their own scorched earth policy for no other reason than to get revenge.

The result of their actions was the deterioration of the school district. Teachers didn't want private information published and they didn't want to put up with the unjust derision and constant harassment by a vocal fringe element of the community. The result wasn't hard to predict; teachers and administrators started looking for jobs elsewhere. The teachers and administrators that were easily able to get jobs in other school districts tended to be the best and brightest of the faculty (including my brother). This left a school district with by and large its poorest most inexperienced teachers and a recruitment problem since it was no longer a desirable school district to work in. Test scores went down, student morale and achievement deteriorated, advisers for school clubs and activities became impossible to find, etc.... The school district was never the same after that.

The individual that is attempting to FOIL teachers salaries in New Hartford has the reputation in the community of being a malicious, jealous individual who does not have the best interests of the community or its children at heart. He has access to an enormous amount of data on average teacher salaries in New Hartford and elsewhere including the teachers' contract that has all the salary information in it. I also heard a few days ago that he was on the Citizen's Advisory Committee at New Hartford and was given extensive aggregate salary and benefits information about 4 years ago as a member of that committee. He has every single piece of data he could want, except an individual salary tied to an individual name. The only reason he could possibly want that data is to harass particular teachers in the school district - there is simply no financial reason to have individual salary data.

As I said in an earlier post I moved up here from Nassau County about 6 years ago partly because some of my wife's family was here, but mostly because I believed this would be a great area to raise children with great schools and dirt cheap housing. I have recently begun questioning whether it was a good idea to come here for numerous reasons, but while I am still here I want my kids to have a good education in a good educational environment. I do not want to see Ed Wiatr destroy the school district...and I firmly believe that is all he wants to do. He doesn't care even a little bit about my children's education, he just wants more money in his pocket.

The argument that New Hartford is over-taxed is pure crap. If you want to make an argument that the region is overtaxed compared to other areas of the country that might be possible. However for our area, my New Hartford taxes are almost identical to every other community I looked to buy a house in. When I first moved here we looked at houses in my price range in the City of Utica, Whitesboro, New Hartford and Sauquoit. Every house in my price range had almost identical tax bills (within a couple hundred dollars of each other). When people say that New Hartford is overtaxed compared to other local communities they are either misinformed or outright lying. If you think that our area has high taxes then you'd lose your mind if you ever lived on Long Island or Westchester County.

In short, if there was a legitimate research purpose behind the request for teacher salaries I really wouldn't have a problem with it....and I'm sure teachers wouldn't either. The person that wants these salaries is simply not a good person. He does not want them for research, he wants them to embarrass and harass people. He is a bitter old man with nothing better to do than to go out of his way to hurt others. I do not want to see him drive people out of a community and a school district that I have come to like and respect. I also resent his hypocrisy of criticizing teacher salaries when he himself takes far more from the "public trough" through his own salary at DFAS.

If teachers anywhere else had the results that New Hartford has they'd get a pat on the back for their accomplishments...here they have to put up with derision and contempt by an individual and an organization that is dedicated to creating an inferior educational system. Even if you are on the "price side" of the argument you would have to concede that the product New Hartford produces is a bargain compared to what you pay.

With all that said, maybe there really are too many senior citizens in New Hartford and in our region for school districts to maintain their quality in the long run. As this area becomes more geriatric I guess it stands to reason that geriatric interests will take more precedence. In a system that allows citizens to vote school budgets up or down, but does not allow the same voting priviliges for social security and medicare, a large percentage of senior citizens might be a prime indicator for young families to move out of an area. Only time will tell.

[clarencebunsen]

frankcor & nhcitizen18,
Those have to be the 2 best posts on this topic I have read: logic, facts, respect for other views.
You can't believe how great the temptation is to reference them at the O-D forum & get slapped.
Thanks guys.

[frankcor]

Thank you, clarence. It's clear nhcitizen is able to disagree agreeably.

nhcitizen, I appreciate your response because it helps to understand this disagreement a little better. Again, I don't even have a side in this fight between those who stress price versus those who stress value.

I would contend that the district you talk about had problems beyond a vocal citizen's group. Evidently, that group was able to garner support because of the demographics many of us face in NY. As more kids leave to find rewarding careers, NY grows older and the price side grows stronger than the value side. The tide may eventually change in New Hartford too. But I don't see any evidence of that happening soon. CC has failed to get 1 board member elected. It will take much more than that to start the deterioration you fear.

I disagree strongly with one statement: "Teachers didn't want private information published"

That information is public information, subject to FOIL. The law is clear. It comes with accepting employment with a public agency. Rather than attack the messenger, teachers and the school board would be better served by countering the message with a message of their own -- the value the community receives from the service teachers provide. Let the people decide.

And I know I started us down this slippery slope, but I caution you against bringing intent into the argument. You wrote: "When people say that New Hartford is overtaxed compared to other local communities they are either misinformed or outright lying."

When denise says New Hartford is taxed to the eyeballs, she is not lying. She is stating her honest opinion. We joke here about the redundancy of using IMO or IMHO, but in this case, I saw those letters when she wrote that because she did not cite evidence. And if she is misinformed, then the school board has failed to do its job, n'est pas?

[nhcitizen18]

Thanks Clarence I appreciate the kind words. The problem I have with certain posters on the OD forums is that they can't seem to be able to discuss issues as Frankcor and I did without attacking people.

The posts made by members of concerned citizens are usually vile and acidic toward some people that truly do not deserve such venom. How could someone in good conscience attack and deride a secretary for not giving you what you want? Could any reasonable person assume that she is the one making the decision? The greatest weakness of that group is their own personalities. People like me who have some agreement with them on some issues will never support their organization or their political candidates because of this.

I know strikeslip is a member of that organization and although I vehemently disagree with him on many issues he is almost always rational and reasonable. I have no problem with different points of view that are generally thoughtful and respectful. Unfortunately he seems to be the only member of that organization that can manage polite discourse.

[frankcor]

Your point about CC's tactics of personal attacks against an employee is well taken, nhcitizen. CC would be much better served to leave the politics of personal destruction to the major political parties and take their appeal directly to the school board in a factual, reasoned approach.

[nhcitizen18]

Frankcor,

MY apologies to you and Denise if she believed that my statements were directed toward her. They most certainly were not. I was referencing others in another forum who continually use that argument. I probably should have made that clear.

As far as teacher salaries go I agree that they are public. However, I would argue that in general one's salary is a highly personal and private piece of information. It is the rare occasion where people will come up to you, say hello, and then ask you how much you make. Most people in polite society understand this and so conversations do not generally entail salary information. I am not disputing the right of a person to have that information, but in this case I apologize to you but I am questioning the intent of the person requesting them.

There are many things in our society that are legal but are not moral. In my opinion although it may be legal to publish salary information for malicious reasons I do not believe it is moral. I fully support comparisons about average teacher salaries and compensation packages across communities. That is information that is annually published by the state government. Here is an example of median teacher salaries:

New Hartford $48,000
Clinton $53,000
Remsen $73,000
Rome $51,000
Waterville $50,000
Whitesboro $50,000
Westmoreland $45,000
Oriskany $45,000
Camden $45,000
Oneida $49,000
Scarsdale (Westchester County): $106,516 median salary.

National Average (2004-2005) : $46,752

www.emsc.nysed.gov/irts/pmf/2005-06/2006_Stat-14.pdf

www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-06-25-teacher-salary-raise_x.htm

There is nothing wrong with comparisons such as this to insure that the spending of individual educational institutions is appropriate. Coupled with this Concerned Citizens has obtained a copy of the teachers’ contract with each individual salary step listed. With these two pieces of information why would someone need to know personal salaries other than to embarrass and harass them?

Here is another link to the salary of federal government workers. Note the accountant line in table 5 that pertains to employees at DFAS including the person that accuses teachers of being overpaid:

www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm

[dgriffin]

NHcitizen wrote:
"The teachers and administrators that were easily able to get jobs in other school districts tended to be the best and brightest of the faculty (including my brother). This left a school district with by and large its poorest most inexperienced teachers and a recruitment problem since it was no longer a desirable school district to work in. Test scores went down, student morale and achievement deteriorated, advisers for school clubs and activities became impossible to find, etc.... The school district was never the same after that."
Sorry, that just sounds too perfect an argument useful to the teachers to be true. Teachers don't move from district to district all that easily because of union rules often barring the granting of steps to incoming teachers.
Also, having been a teacher in a NY State public school, my opinions as to why teachers don't want their salaries published are:
1. the salaries are usually higher than many of the taxpayers, and especially when comparing family incomes, re husband-wife teachers
2. such a published schedule would show the large differences in individual salaries among teachers, especially when longevity amounts are included.
3. related to the above, district residents would be asking themselves, how come young and vibrant, helfpul and hardworking Mrs. Jones earns only $50K when old irritable, tough marking, slowing going and lazy Mr. Ratskinner teaches the same subject and makes $85K?

[nhcitizen18]

3. related to the above, district residents would be asking themselves, how come young and vibrant, helfpul and hardworking Mrs. Jones earns only $50K when old irritable, tough marking, slowing going and lazy Mr. Ratskinner teaches the same subject and makes $85K?

In your example it was mostly the Mrs. Jones type teachers that left. Mostly because they were young enough that they could more easily get around the step rules you mentioned. This left a disproportionate amount of the Mrs. Ratskinner types in the district.