|
Post by dgriffin on Dec 2, 2009 10:58:56 GMT -5
I thought it was, "I'm too sexy for my cardigan sweater."
|
|
|
Post by stoney on Dec 2, 2009 11:35:00 GMT -5
lol! Did you watch it, Dave?
There is some old video in there of a dark-haired model & I'm wondering if that's Gia, the model who died of a drug overdose (she also had AIDS, but I'm not sure exactly what she died from).
|
|
|
Post by dgriffin on Dec 2, 2009 14:16:52 GMT -5
lol! Did you watch it, Dave?
There is some old video in there of a dark-haired model & I'm wondering if that's Gia, the model who died of a drug overdose (she also had AIDS, but I'm not sure exactly what she died from). Over-confidence.
|
|
|
Post by gearofzanzibar on Dec 2, 2009 15:28:49 GMT -5
~~Gear, from what I understand many of the founders were not Christan, so we'll just have to disagree, just as we'll have to disagree on the issue of Deism. So your argument is based on faith, and not any actual evidence? I ask only because of your insistence that your letter was based on "fact", yet your assertion seems to fly in the face of actual scholarship, most notably "The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America" by Frank Lambert. The text, including citations for the primary source documents supporting the overwhelmingly Christian nature of the Founders, is available at: books.google.com/books?id=1qse4fZ6eQgC&dq=lambert+founding+fathers+religion&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=bsgWS8WFCJDclAfMiIHCBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=falseObviously, your source is incorrect. Do you remember where you Googled it up from? As much as can be expected, I 'spose. Heh.
|
|
|
Post by dgriffin on Dec 2, 2009 17:47:43 GMT -5
I haven't read Lambert's book, but I did read the introduction on Google Books (thanks, Gear.) In those paragraphs, the author makes the case that America was not founded as a Christian nation, also my understanding.
I'm not under the impression that the Founding Fathers were serious or enthusiastic Christians, although they espoused Christian principles. If Lambert's conclusion is that the FF's were practicing Christians, that would be a surprise.
I took Stoney's "founders were not Christan" statement to mean they were not practicing Christians, nor did they believe the basic tenets of the Christian faith, such as the divinity of Christ, the apostolic nature of the church and such items as the resurrection of the dead. I think there is ample evidence for that in their writings. In short, the Founding Fathers were not Christian like the writer of the letter to the editor might hope himself to be.
I suppose one could argue that the anti-christian writings from the founding fathers are from only a small number of these men. I don't know that it's true, by the way. And I've never read anything from the others that lead me to believe the rest of the signers of the Constitution were altar boys. I see no reason why Jefferson and Adams, etc. were not representative of their class.
|
|
|
Post by gearofzanzibar on Dec 2, 2009 21:21:43 GMT -5
I haven't read Lambert's book, but I did read the introduction on Google Books (thanks, Gear.) In those paragraphs, the author makes the case that America was not founded as a Christian nation, also my understanding. That's something I totally agree with. We most emphatically are not a Christian nation, which I think that has a lot to do with the fact that the founders *were* Christian. The colonial experience had shown the horrors of merging government and religion as well as the advantages of a secularized government. They rightfully chose the secular path. 49 of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention were self-identified Christians, according to Lambert's research. More importantly, his work doesn't have any kind of "This is a Christian Nation!" agenda. He's a respected historian that scrupulously checks sources, to the point that he excoriated historian Michael Bellesiles for falsifying research and records in the "Arming America" scandal. The historical record supports that assertion that the Founders were Christian, but I think they were most emphatically not zealots. Well, other than Strong and Basset, who offered everyone else in attendance a wonderful example of how bad mixing faith and politics could be. The rest of the Founders had seen first hand what could happen when you mixed government with religion and, justifiably, were loathe to saddle the new nation with that burden. As an example, Jefferson himself, the most openly anti-religious of the founders, had been a vestryman because it was the only way to serve on the court in pre-unification Virginia. Heck, four of the 55 delegates (Johnson, Ellsworth, Baldwin, and Williamson) were ordained clerics! Would that we were so lucky as to have 55 Jeffersons, but I think the evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of the founders were Christian. The non-Christians were some of the most brilliant men at the Convention, but they were a small minority. I think the more important point is that together, and for reasons as varied as their ideologies, they crafted a nation where faith was a personal matter not subject to the State's will. uote]
|
|
|
Post by dgriffin on Dec 2, 2009 22:56:06 GMT -5
I'm sure Lambert is right about the record showing the FF's were self-identified as Christians. But yes, not zealots, nor even believers in the sense the word is normally used. Gear, did you enjoy Lambert's book? Is it worth adding to my pile? (The unread one.)
|
|
|
Post by gearofzanzibar on Dec 3, 2009 1:25:29 GMT -5
I'm sure Lambert is right about the record showing the FF's were self-identified as Christians. But yes, not zealots, nor even believers in the sense the word is normally used. Gear, did you enjoy Lambert's book? Is it worth adding to my pile? (The unread one. Definitely worth adding if your interested in the subject and it is available on Amazon. And I can relate to the horrors of the ever growing pile of books you haven't read. I love hunting through thrift stores for books, but I'm much better at buying them than I am I reading them. On the bright side, once the significant other forces me to move them from the side of the bed and into the bookcase they're an excellent insulator. Heh.
|
|
|
Post by dgriffin on Dec 3, 2009 11:21:00 GMT -5
Thanks. Although we haven't in a while, we used to drive over to Vermont and work our way up Route 7 through Manchester and Arlington, one church or library book fair after another on a Sunday afternoon. The weekend BEFORE the Columbus Day 3 day circus was best. Each organization would have their books out and we would be seven days ahead of the leaf-peeping hordes who clogged the roads in honor of ... "What was that guy's name? Columbo?" I heard a woman ask her husband one year. "Italian," said her husband, as he turned back to the stacks of books. "Wasn't he a detective?" she persisted. When her husband ignored her, I turned to the woman and said, "He was a detective and an explorer who discovered America." "I thought so," she said. "I saw it on TV."
|
|
|
Post by Clipper on Dec 3, 2009 11:38:39 GMT -5
Kathy complains all the time of the stacks of books laying about the house. It has gotten better since I started shopping at Mr K's used book store in Johnson City Tn though. I buy hard cover editions for anywhere from 3-6 dollars apiece and when I trade them back in I get about half of that amount in credit.
With paperbacks running well over $10, I feel quite blessed to be able to read hard cover books for about $2 apiece. I also find that recent best sellers are often found there used, for about 5 or 6 bucks.
Kathy is much happier. I never used to dispose of any books. I had boxes of them around in storage, on bookshelves and piled on my night stand. I was able to take a majority of them to Mr K's and end up with a small credit slip with a large monetary amount printed on it. It fits in my wallet. Much more compact than 40 or 50 books. I will not have to pay cash for at least a year, reading a book a week, and trading them back for credit.
|
|
|
Post by dgriffin on Dec 3, 2009 15:39:00 GMT -5
I don't see as many used book shops as I used to. May be my imagination, or just where I go, but I think the current economic condition has made it more difficult to prosper in a business that isn't that profitable anyway.
We had an interesting case here in the village this year where a bookseller gave his bookstore away. He took the historical publications portion with him (home, to run from his house), but for a dollar sold the store to a young woman who got the books and furnishings, good will, etc. She started paying the rent, added a few chairs and tables for a reading area and hoped to make a go of it. She didn't. She had a great location, great ideas and a great deal of enthusiasm. She sponsored reading groups, and even provided a meeting place for our writing group. But the business just wasn't there.
|
|
|
Post by bobbbiez on Dec 3, 2009 15:43:46 GMT -5
Stoney, very well written letter in interpreting your beliefs. Thanks for sharing it with us and for being willing to give your opinion. Good for you girl! One thing I learned about any topic on religion is to stay far away from it only because you can put 10 people, even of the same faith, in a room to discuss any religious subject and you will get 10 different meanings of their interpretation on the subject. I believe and practice what I was taught and have faith in. That's good enough for me.
|
|
|
Post by stoney on Dec 3, 2009 16:02:39 GMT -5
Thanks, Bobbiez. To tell you the truth, I really didn't think I was giving an opinion more than giving fact, but who the hell knows anymore. Maybe I was letting my beliefs color it.
The funny thing is~~I am a Christian. I just don't think religion & government should mix.
I won't even bring up my views on abortion, sex education, birth control, gay rights, racial inequality, blah-blah-blah...
|
|
|
Post by Clipper on Dec 3, 2009 16:13:43 GMT -5
Oh come'on ya big chicken. Bring all that stuff up! LOL
|
|
|
Post by stoney on Dec 3, 2009 16:15:56 GMT -5
Ppppbbbllltt!!!!! You just want to see me get flogged again!
|
|