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Post by rodwilson on Sept 16, 2009 8:35:11 GMT -5
That's right Dave. I'm optimistic but I'm no Pollyanna. I understand the realities that face us. People want opportunity. I know of people that walk miles to a garbage job to take of their own. I really do believe that given options, most, not all people will choose pride, self reliance and an opportunity to follow their dreams. I think our best successes will come from the next generation, then the next. I saw this this past summer when we sponsored a team in the new Thomas Lindsey Memorial League. I might have have bragged just a little about winning the CHAMPIONSHIP. But my point is this. The success of this league I think was more than people imagined. Kids that were thought to have no interest showed up and shined. Parents and families came in droves. I heard a story just the other day of a young boy that had some serious behavior issues including running the streets until all hours. This boy was signed up for the league, got his uniform shirt and wore for 4 days before his first game. The turnaround for this child has been amazing. It's a work in progress but it is that. IN PROGRESS.
I've got my own youngster to get off to school but I'll be back.
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Post by rodwilson on Sept 16, 2009 14:03:03 GMT -5
Dave and Fiona, thank you. Fascinating stuff. Dave dead on with regard to business and social contracts. Another key aspect of local business is pride of ownership and giving back to the community. Local business puts more than 4 times the charitable contributions of big box stores into the community.
Business here in Utica and surrounding communities could do much the re-examine their social contracts and responsibilities. There are some GREAT local contributors but there are so many BIG takers. Here's an example. Earlier this summer, I was shopping around for some baseball equipment. I call the locals first to see if maybe I could get a deal given the nature of the cause. My idea is this. I've got X amount of dollars that I'd like to see go as far as I can. So I talk to a very, nice woman and ask about the possibility of a good deal, like I said, good cause. So I ask how about getting me some gear at cost? My thinking is this. You're not making anything but you're not losing anything. I'm going to go tell everybody about what a great thing you did for us and we're all going to shop at your store right? How about just taking a little less of a profit then? Give me say a decent 75%? I mean all you have to do is say yes and you're making SOME coin. So she kicked me upstairs to the owner voice-mail and needless to say I didn't hear back.
So sadly, I spent that money at a national chain and out of the community it went. I just won't do business with a company that won't contribute. This same company by the way were just the beneficiaries of a sweetheart property in purchase by the county in Rome.
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Post by rodwilson on Sept 16, 2009 17:06:47 GMT -5
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Post by rodwilson on Sept 16, 2009 19:35:21 GMT -5
Here's another link I'd like to share. I've referred to Schenectady a few times. This is their approach. Business owners, community fund raising and participation and some grant funding. Check out their new Friday night downtown shopping event. www.downtownschenectady.org/index.cfm |
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Post by gearofzanzibar on Sept 17, 2009 3:37:06 GMT -5
I call the locals first to see if maybe I could get a deal given the nature of the cause. My idea is this. I've got X amount of dollars that I'd like to see go as far as I can. So I talk to a very, nice woman and ask about the possibility of a good deal, like I said, good cause. So I ask how about getting me some gear at cost? My thinking is this. You're not making anything but you're not losing anything. I'm going to go tell everybody about what a great thing you did for us and we're all going to shop at your store right? How about just taking a little less of a profit then? Give me say a decent 75%? Er...let me make sure I understand this correctly. You wanted a 75% discount? |
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Post by dgriffin on Sept 17, 2009 7:34:43 GMT -5
Rod, thanks for the references, but I think I got something from them you may not have intended. I grant you there is certainly a lot of anti-Walmart fervor out there. In my mind, many of the studies are at least a bit suspect. I'm gonna bet much of the data is correlative. I'll take a few wildass guesses about the studies without out delving into them. "This study found that Wal-Mart reduces a community's level of social capital, as measured by voter turnout and the number of active community organizations." Uh-huh. That's my favorite and it's quite a conclusion: Walmart depresses voter turnout and community involvement? More than lackluster candidates for office? Walmart locates where it believes its customer base to be. I'm willing to bet low to middle income families who don't have time for community involvement make the best Walmart customers, because of convenience, hours, prices, etc. We can blame the dousing of public spirit on other causes, I think. Another study discovered workers in locally owned stores earning higher wages, and local stores selling more per square foot. I wonder if local stores pay more because they're so small only the owners work as employees. And sure, local stores use retail space more efficiently. That's the reason they're always out of the odd item I want occasionally. So I go to Walmart, because they can afford to stock stuff I don't need every month. The study calls it inefficiency, I call it convenience. I suppose I sound simply derisive, but I have a larger point. I'm no mega-business fan, but it's important we understand what Walmart does right if we wanna surpass them. Bogey men never lose. Now, here's a guy with an interesting twist. One of the best documentaries I've seen since Marjoe. Funny, too. Midway through the film, I got a feeling that Billy was coming to believe what had begun for him as humor. Although his tongue was firmly planted in cheek when he performed the "exorcism" on the Walmart sign outside their headquarters building in Bentonville, Arkansas. |
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Post by rodwilson on Sept 17, 2009 7:56:48 GMT -5
I call the locals first to see if maybe I could get a deal given the nature of the cause. My idea is this. I've got X amount of dollars that I'd like to see go as far as I can. So I talk to a very, nice woman and ask about the possibility of a good deal, like I said, good cause. So I ask how about getting me some gear at cost? My thinking is this. You're not making anything but you're not losing anything. I'm going to go tell everybody about what a great thing you did for us and we're all going to shop at your store right? How about just taking a little less of a profit then? Give me say a decent 75%? Er...let me make sure I understand this correctly. You wanted a 75% discount? I was hoping to get the products for cost. They were for a new inner city baseball league. Charity, a good one at that. Any discount I was looking for was from the profit margin. Even at cost, they could have made a nice contribution to a community organization without them reaching into their pockets for a cent. Even just taken a a smaller profit. The return is that the community understands that you're willing to help out and will in return shop in your store. The profit lost on this one transaction will be more than made by people shopping in the store as a result of the charitable action. Heck, my company as well as others wrote the checks, went right into our pockets. A discount from a community store certainly doesn't seem it should be so far-fetched. This group makes much money from it's taking from the community. I know they that @ the very least they participate in a voucher program social services to provide kids from the House of Good Shepherd with clothing. I'm sure that program extends beyond that. |
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Post by rodwilson on Sept 17, 2009 7:58:25 GMT -5
Points understood Dave. I don't buy into every point they make, just thought I'd share it with you. Every side has got their spin but the reality is that Big Box and Wal-Mart are bad for local economies. I'n mot even a Wal-Mart hater. My biggest gripe is that Wal-Mart has more than enough of their own capital to expand without sucking up taxpayer funds upon rolling into town on top of sucking money out of the local economies. I'm sure you're familiar with these statistics. necarbonchallenge.org/newsletter/economics_buying_local.jspI'm not stupid enough to think that Wal-Mart is going anywhere. But You can't buy everything at Wal-Mart. I know many people that won't buy clothes or food there. |
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Post by rodwilson on Sept 17, 2009 8:23:09 GMT -5
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Post by dgriffin on Sept 17, 2009 9:00:17 GMT -5
Yes, helpful references. From the New Hampshire Carbon Challenge reference:
"For every $100 spent at a locally owned business, $45 remains in the local economy; for every $100 spent at a big-box store, only $14 stays in the local economy. Neighborhood businesses are invested in their communities. They bank locally, advertise locally, purchase their inventory from local manufacturers, and hire local accountants and repair people. In contrast, products, advertising brochures, and supplies used by large retailers are generally purchased externally and trucked to many stores. Local merchants also spend more of their profits in the local economy and give to area charities at a much higher rate than the chain retailers."
That makes good sense.
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Post by rodwilson on Sept 17, 2009 12:09:05 GMT -5
Wal-mart is just the start. Now start counting how many national chains, including restaurants that the county has "brought" in in the past few years. Offering them Empire Zone benies, PILOT programs and other subsidies which DIRECTLY take from tax coffers without putting anything back in comparison. This puts the additional tax burden on local businesses and residents. Making the swing back to local businesses is a great start. We don't lose, only gain. We keep significant amounts of monies in a variety of forms. Add this the models I posted above in where the counties replace 5% of the products and goods imported into a county and city with locally produced goods and REALLY developing a regional food system could allow us to generate an additional 100's of millions of dollars a year and keep it in the local economy. All of the ancillary multipliers and trickle down all apply. We're talking about putting local people INTO business, stabilizing and even growing our tax base and creating real jobs and opportunity. With ideas, people and necessities that are already here but our leaders feel that we need to attract.
Some of these same benies are given to the locals, unfortunately, it's usually the wrong locals with little given back to the taxpayers in return. Swinging the funds wasted at MV Edge and other local "EcDev" pet projects can really go a long way. Couple that with people that REALLY understand EcDev and we're on our way.
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Post by gearofzanzibar on Sept 17, 2009 12:56:03 GMT -5
I can appreciate what, in theory, you're trying to do, but what's stopping this explosion of localized entrepreneurship from happening now?
From my own experience, and the very example you sited earlier, there are a multitude of local, family owned businesses in the Utica/Rome area that simply didn't want my trade. I've dealt with suppliers of raw materials like wood and steel stock that couldn't be bothered to even give me a quote. Every local printer I consulted about producing my brochures, postcards, and office supplies had a price, at a minimum, at least double of what I could get from a jobber across the country. Ironically, that same jobber also offered detailed, comprehensive customer service...the one area you would think a local business could excel at. The one local bookstore that the area still has (I think) asked me "Why would you want to read that?" when I tried ordering a book through them eight years ago. Thanks to their abysmal customer service I've spent the intervening years ordering thousands of dollars in books from Amazon and couldn't be happier, both in terms of price and service.
On the other hand, I do think you're right about local food production being a huge, untapped market. There are some excellent local producers of fresh produce, meat, and baked goods that blow anything available at chain stores out of the water in terms of quality. I was more than happy to patronize those businesses because they offered a high quality product and excellent service.
Beyond that...what could I possibly buy locally that I can't get from somewhere else cheaper, better, and, in many cases, with superior service? It's easy to idealize Ma and Pa Kettle's General Store, but when I can get the same toilet paper at Walmart for a fraction of the price there's no real reason to patronize the Kettles. Heck, I've ordered name brand groceries from Amazon because their low prices and free shipping made it even cheaper than Walmart. For commodity goods it's inefficient and wasteful to use local suppliers.
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Post by rodwilson on Sept 17, 2009 13:34:06 GMT -5
I can appreciate what, in theory, you're trying to do, but what's stopping this explosion of localized entrepreneurship from happening now? From my own experience, and the very example you sited earlier, there are a multitude of local, family owned businesses in the Utica/Rome area that simply didn't want my trade. I've dealt with suppliers of raw materials like wood and steel stock that couldn't be bothered to even give me a quote. Every local printer I consulted about producing my brochures, postcards, and office supplies had a price, at a minimum, at least double of what I could get from a jobber across the country. Ironically, that same jobber also offered detailed, comprehensive customer service...the one area you would think a local business could excel at. The one local bookstore that the area still has (I think) asked me "Why would you want to read that?" when I tried ordering a book through them eight years ago. Thanks to their abysmal customer service I've spent the intervening years ordering thousands of dollars in books from Amazon and couldn't be happier, both in terms of price and service. On the other hand, I do think you're right about local food production being a huge, untapped market. There are some excellent local producers of fresh produce, meat, and baked goods that blow anything available at chain stores out of the water in terms of quality. I was more than happy to patronize those businesses because they offered a high quality product and excellent service. Beyond that...what could I possibly buy locally that I can't get from somewhere else cheaper, better, and, in many cases, with superior service? It's easy to idealize Ma and Pa Kettle's General Store, but when I can get the same toilet paper at Walmart for a fraction of the price there's no real reason to patronize the Kettles. Heck, I've ordered name brand groceries from Amazon because their low prices and free shipping made it even cheaper than Walmart. For commodity goods it's inefficient and wasteful to use local suppliers. All understood and valid points and couldn't agree more. I think key issues here education, co-operation and attitude. I'm talking beyond what just the average citizen uses, what about supplies that our other local or even national and regional businesses use that are currently bringing in? How about the local government. I just read that the UPD and UFD buy supplies form the Albany area. I understand that in cash value, it's cheaper to do so. But what is the total cost factoring in the loss of that income from the local economy. What is the "REAL" price and cost of bringing in said products? Consumers need to be educated, as do business owners and local officials. The nationals aren't going to pack up and go away. How about all of new chain restaurants? We're probably not going to chase them out but we can sell them local food products. I also understand very cleary the points you make regarding local business. They need to learn that changes need to happen. Whether that comes about by being involved in community, business supported programs or by a loss in business remains to be seen. They can be culled out by use of free markets. I know plenty of people who would "hang a slate" if there was any type of support. They talk about it, but it's not really there. Most of these programs are a joke and exist so somebody's friend or relative can have a nice little gig. The challenges of being 1 guy or girl with a dream and trying to take it downtown are ridiculous. A unified front with support can and will go a long way. If our local officials mad half the effort to support locals (with resources and in spirit) that they offer folks trying to lure them in, it'd be a whole different ballgame. As far as foods, the opportunity is there. By creating and supporting a real system we can provide real, local foods in local retailers, local restaurants and local school cafeterias. How many of those can we find just between Syracuse and Albany. I know for a fact of a local produce business that has to buy imported produce because they can't find the quality of what they need. I also couldn't find local produce that I needed for my business. California has a $30 Billion produce industry. My family buys that produce all year round. So does everyone else's because we really don't have much option. What if really created a food system here that could supply the NorthEast. I understand the seasonal issues but I also understand that people are doing amazing things in agriculture. Just not here. Like I said, I'm one guy with some information that I think can help greatly. I don't for a second think that I have all of the answers. I'm sure that there are lots of other folks with great ideas and knowledge. We need to create an environment that fosters and nurtures such. What if you could walk into a local bookstore armed with the understanding of the value of your purchase, get quality and friendly service with people you know and pay an extra dollar for your book IF local sales taxes were in line, local property taxes were in line? You'd have that extra buck and the understanding of what that dollar means to the community. Quality of life, arts and services. Would that extra dollar then be worth it? |
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Post by dgriffin on Sept 17, 2009 15:33:51 GMT -5
"What if you could into a local bookstore armed with the understanding of the value of your purchase, get quality and friendly service with people you know and pay an extra dollar for your book IF local sales taxes were in line, local property taxes were in line?"
Does that mean you would tax local business less, off loading the burden on citizens? Eventually, all of this has to obey the rules of arithmetic. The Amazon example strikes close to home, because I just can't afford pay the prices at my favorite local bookstore. And the owner really can't afford to cut his prices any more than he has. If the town and county cut his taxes in half, that burden would pass to others, unless you could cut government expenses by reducing services, getting the teachers to take a pay cut (!) and putting some of the welfare population on the next bus leaving town.
A favorite local hardware store here should be given a medal for "competing in the face of heavy fire," since the owner has been able to survive nearby Lowes and Home Depot stores. But I notice the quality of the goods cheapening (I've had 3 inch bolts break when trying to tighten them, causing me to swear profusely at the maker, "该死狗屎"
Changing all of this will be immensely complicated, Rod.
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Post by fiona on Sept 17, 2009 15:40:14 GMT -5
I really don't know wether or not Grace Church has done so. I have never attended any services there, being a ( lapsed) R.C.. however, I have read their mission statement and I do know that they have a bargain basement, a food pantry, a lunch program and that the mission statement reads ( in part): all are welcome, irregardless of your personal faith or path. I may go there for some of their afternoon music. The sanctuary is beautiful, but I personally don't do " church as entertainment." I think what I was trying to do was use Grace Church as a symbol of a symptom of decay, or a victim of the effects of social decay. In Utica, as in other rustbelt cities, crime and poverty have effected everypart of the social network. And yes, Dave, you are correct. St John's is thriving, simply because they have learned to adjust and adapt. If anyone is interested in reviving Utica, first study the old ward maps. See where the people lived, and where the houses of worship were and how they held the neighborhood together. Everything centered around this fact. Let's look at an old map and here we see Genesee Street: First, there are (were) no churches that I know of below the canal. We cross the canal over the Whipple Bridge. The first church we see is Grace Church ( Protestant). The we walk by the Church of the Redeemer (Protestant). As we continue we may see Westminster, and so on. There are no Catholic Churches on Genesee Street. Genesee Street is the spine of the city. As we head east or west we find Catholic Churches, down to Liberty Street, synagogs, over to Elizabeth Street, Hope AME, in the African American section. The biggest and most palatial churches are along Genesee Street, serving a white upper class congegation. The neighborhoods all had their own churches, surrounding these were the stores, the restaurants, the social infastructure that we know as old Utica and Utica up to the late 1960's. If you want to revitalize a city, you have to look at the neighborhoods, ask yourself: what was the glue that held these social organisims together and how can we recreate it. I will tell you that it's not the shopping mall, even though shopping has become a sort of religion. And it's certaintly not urban renewal. tearing things down rarely works. And it's not really "good jobs" either, even though they help. People can be poor and still be a cohesive group and have civic pride. People have to have a tie, a bond , with a place and they will stay there for generations. Then they will say : this is my home. this is where I am from and here I will stay, good or bad, right or wrong. An example is my family: we have been here since 1845, for good and bad, right or wrong. Our mantra is " we were , are, the Famine Irish, and that is passed down through generations. So it was and still is, with Uticans of all ethnic groups. This is where a positive feeling begins to grow that will eventually do good for the city: In the hearts and minds of the people. If you don't have that, I don't care what else you offer, Utica will continue to decay and you are simply pouring salt into the ocean.
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