Revitalizing Utica

[bobbbiez]

ps: I also jumped in because the Yankees are getting their a**es kicked by the Phillies and I needed to vent.

Sh*t, Sh*t, Sh*t!

Sorry for my bad language.

[Clipper]

The idea that my posts are a "personal attack" are a little off base. A heated discussion is more like it. You stated that "YOU LIVE THERE" which I took to mean that I DON"T. I don't live there, but I have family there, property there, speak daily with people up there, and my heart is there. It is hard to read inflection into one's statements in print. Sorry if I misunderstood the meaning of your statement.

I by no means attack you personally. I may disagree with your viewpoints, as you disagree with mine, but as I said, I respect your idealistic enthusiasm for a cause. Any cause.

By the way. Most of the people that I know that work at the Distribution Center are happy to be there. They are like some others and were born and brought up in the Utica-Rome area and don't want to leave. They are grateful for the jobs brought not only by Walmart, but also from the distribution centers in West Rome, and the casino.

When you move to Saratoga area, you will find a whole new batch of people complaining about the Target Distribution Center just North of there. The same complaints. Low wages, low benefits, and all the rest that you find at Walmart in Marcy. I remember the turmoil surrounding the building of that place also.

I guess I would have to admire the self confidence that you feel that you can change anything by not shopping at Walmart. You make a "statement", but that statement is not made by large enough numbers or loud enough to be any more than a minor annoyance to Walmart or the rest of us that shop there.

I shop everywhere. I love shirts from Penny's and from Kohl's. I buy all my tools from Sears. I seldom shop at Kmart due to the quality of their goods. If one wants to see imported "crap", one needs to check out the garbage on the racks at Kmart.

Where we part ways is the idea that Walmart is responsible for the lack of employment or the outsourcing of the jobs that used to be in Utica. or contributed to decline economically in the Northeast. Government greed, high taxes, unions, and corrupt politics drove the jobs out of the Northeast and into the South. Our own government drove the business offshore with NAFTA and other "fair trade" policies.

I don't envy a young man like yourself. Trying to do well for his family in today's economic climate. It is tough, and frustrating. I certainly don't mean my posts to be a personal attack. I simply love my hometown, and any efforts that have been made to make do with whatever employment opportunities they have been given. Walmart and the casino are ripped every day in the news media, and ironically, they are two of the mainstays in the local economy right now.

Your idealism would be better received and nurtured here, South of the Mason Dixon line, and where government is still controlled by the people, and taxes are closely budgeted and kept as low as possible. Here in Bristol, we pay 9.75 sales tax, but we have NO income tax, and our property taxes are less than $500 a year on a $100K+ property. Flag football is alive an well here, as is high school sports a major entertainment venue on friday nights. Little league is played by every little boy and softball leagues are plentiful.

Your small business plans would thrive here in the South. You would not be smothered by government greed and high taxes. Hell Rod, I don't hold no angst for you. I simply disagree and find some of your ideas a little naive. As for the walmart causing a flu shot shortage, the government should regulate where the vaccine goes in a pandemic situation. Until they do, I can't fault Walmart for free enterprise and competing in the world of retail. If Rite Aid can do it, then Walmart can too.

[rodwilson]

"I saw how fast the enthusiasm died when the recall thing went astray. If I remember correctly YOU were going to leave town at that point."

I found that to be somewhat personal.

"Where we part ways is the idea that Walmart is responsible for the lack of employment or the outsourcing of the jobs that used to be in Utica. or contributed to decline economically in the Northeast. Government greed, high taxes, unions, and corrupt politics drove the jobs out of the Northeast and into the South. Our own government drove the business offshore with NAFTA and other "fair trade" policies."

I agree with all of these points and have never stated otherwise. The point that I have maintained throughout this whole thread is that I strongly disapprove of using public and taxpayer funds to bring big box retailers into a community. That really was it. If it's your opinion that the Wal Mart model works you're entitled to it. Me, I'd like to see local retailers selling locally baked cookies myself. You call it naive, the rest of us call it understanding local economies. To say that bringing in national chain restaurants and retailers has not effected our economy is naive. I've supported that with facts and figures. How free do you think those workers feel in those factories that make products exclusively for Wal Mart. Let's face it, Wal Mart owns their asses. And when you say that the people you know are "happy to be there", do you mean in relative terms or are these their dream jobs?

"You make a "statement", but that statement is not made by large enough numbers or loud enough to be any more than a minor annoyance to Walmart or the rest of us that shop there."

Sometimes a "statement" is not so much a statement as it's doing what you believe in.

As far as the casino, I'm all for them. I just feel they need to contribute as well as take.

I'm not alone. There are many who understand the dynamics of the things I discuss and more and more join the ranks everyday. I'm not nearly as against Wal Mart as I'm for local economies. This country was built on them. Self sustaining local economies. Even the Federal Government is understanding this and developing programs that reflect such especially with regard to agriculture.

"I can't fault Walmart for free enterprise and competing in the world of retail. If Rite Aid can do it, then Walmart can too."

I guess it gets back to social contracting. Good for profits or good for the people?

[Ralph]

Just to throw my two cents in here……I am not a big fan of some of Wal Marts policies, but a lot of what Gear had to say is true. For many they are satisfied with what they have to offer, for some it is all they can afford, for others that have an eye on better quality or something more specialized, there are suppliers/manufacturers around for everyone willing to pay the price.

In recent years I have had to tighten the belt here considerably. Where in some instances I wouldn’t bat an eye at price, now I will try the Dollar Store before even Wal Mart.
The same exact dried tropical fruit I used to buy for our birds at Price Chopper for 2.50 I can get at Wal Mart for 1.97……now at the Dollar Store for a buck. It isn’t always about loyalties, for a lot of us it is simple arithmetic.
Stouffers Skillet meals; Hannafords $5, Price Chopper almost that and Wal Mart 3.88......easy peasy.

Prescriptions…..hell, I pay $260.00 a month for "subsidized" health insurance so I can get my $426.00 a month Prevacid for $20 after my yearly deductible. If Wal Mart could get me that for $4 a month I could cut my insurance almost in half by dropping the prescription coverage….bet your wallet I would go to them.

Yes, at some point it is about “greed”; if you wish to label people making a profit “greedy”, but then that is the way it has always been. You sell what you have for as much as you can get and pay as little as possible for it and the associated services it takes to sell said product(s), that is the way it works. Truth is, things are MUCH more fair now that they were 50 – 100 years ago. Tain't no one holding a gun to anyones head to get them to work there.....pays more bills than not working at all.

And it is not just Wal Mart or the other big box companies. Despite my exalted title of Assistant Manager I don’t make all that much…..hell, even our managers aren’t making that much compared to other retailers of the same type. I know that I am worth at least twice what I am being paid; so does my boss, so does my operations manager, but it is not their call and I am grateful at this point for a J-O-B. I work long hours and a nice chunk of it off the clock, but if I got paid for every minute both my boss and I would be out of a job for the fact that we have numbers to meet every week…..but we still have to get the job done. And if I don’t like it there……well, I am more than welcome to find another job somewhere else if I want. If all of us got paid what we felt was "fair"...out of 311 stores in our network........well, the gentleman that owns the franchise would have to go to work at Wal Mart himself to make ends meet!

Dream jobs for the most are just that….a dream, especially in the Northeast and NY in particular.

And face it, if you have the right niche you will succeed no matter what. Neither the Wal Marts in the area or all the Dunkin Donuts we have brought in have put Holland Farms out of business yet.

Face it, in every country of the world there is one place everyone dreams to work because they are so great, pay so much, etc.
And there is also one place that everyone hates because they are greedy and raping the rest of us.
For us it might be Google on one hand and Wal Mart on the other.
Of course there is/was Enron.......Oh Wait, that didn't work out so well did it?!?!

As far as revitalizing the area goes. Until everyone from the local village idiot on a town board all the way up to and including our state legislators gets their hands out of the cookie jar and their heads out of their a**es the best we can hope for is to keep our heads above water and pick up the scraps. Our own local and state governments have done more to hurt us than all the Wal Marts in the country ever could!

For any of that to happen I figure we all have a better chance of seeing the Second Coming of Christ first.

[Clipper]

Simple changing with the times. We used to approve of government giving breaks to those that brought manufacturing jobs to the area. Now manufacturing jobs are no longer a part of the equation and are NOT coming to the area, so we have stooped to luring retail and service jobs to the area, because that is the ONLY jobs out there to be lured.

You are actually lucky in that area to have as much local business as you do. You still have lots of mom and pop restaurants, bakeries, family owned auto repair shops, clothing stores, etc. Even in the grocery arena, you have Golub owning the Price Choppers, headquartered in the Capital District, as is Save a lot. You have Phillipson's competing rather well with Dick's Sporting Goods. You can still buy pizza from other outlets, other than pizza hut and papa john's.

While your self sustaining local economy is not what it used to be, there is still a local economy that is somewhat self sustaining. You actually have a fair mix of both worlds there in Central NY.

I don't know about NY State, but here, we have seen a move by major grocery chains to buy local. We have a major player in the local market that buys all of their lamb locally, along with much of their angus beef, and much of the produce that is in season at any given time. Much of what we eat, from milk to ice cream, from eggs to roast beef, comes from a Tennessee supplier.

If we want to worry about American made products, we need to stay after our representatives to step up and support local dairy farmers and programs to boost the price they get for producing our milk.We need whatever price supports are necessary to keep our food production here in the USA for a major part.. THAT should be our number one priority.

As gear said, you have to have a niche product and a niche market to sell it to, in order to thrive as a small business. Any dream of taking back a MAJOR market share from big box is simply that, a dream.

I DO wish you luck in your endeavor, but local economy, supported by local small business is sadly a thing of the past. Be happy that your area still has as high of a percentage of locally owned business as it does. Hopefully that will remain a stable force and success will continue for locally owned business.

As for government subsidizing a developer, I am not usually in favor of that scenario, having watched Utica piss away money on the Hotel Utica, with the modern Radisson with all it's amenities across the street struggling to fill rooms, and the restaurant at the marina. I do however think that there may be a future in the Riverside Center area. As of now, most retail of any consequence is located in the over crowded, heavy traffic, hard to access, commercial drive area of NH. Riverside is much more accessible, and with a couple of large big box anchor stores and a couple of restaurants on out parcels, that area could be brought back and would thrive.

The worst thing that they ever did was place Lowes in the center of a shopping center. Nowhere else in all of my travels have I ever seen a lumber yard in a mall. I guess it needs to digress back to what it used to be. A clothing outlet, a shoe store, an optician, electronics and appliance outlet, sporting goods, and others. All marketed at once. Old Navy was there and left, electronics have been there and left. One cannot thrive in a half full mall. It must be marketed in such a manner as to fill the spaces with needed and wanted commodities.

Maybe YOUR kind of business Rod, if that were to be economically feasible. Make the rents low enough to begin with, and when success comes, raise them APPROPRIATELY, and not so high as to chase business out.

I guess living in Utica most of my life, I realize that any change that is to come to Utica will come slowly and painfully. That is due to the lack of support from local citizens, and corrupt politics. Utica will always be a good place to live, and will survive, but as far as a stellar economic boomtown, that is not in the cards. You will find that Saratoga is much better for your dreams and hopes. If you don't have an INBORN love for Utica and the Mohawk Valley, it is hard to move there and find the area to be your kind of place.

[rodwilson]

I'm going to try to simplify and clarify this a briefly as possible. I understand EVERY one of your points. Agree with some and disagree with some. I won't even touch the quality of food issue and the impact that a Wal Mart diet vs a local real food diet.

Repeatedly I have used the word BALANCE. Repeatedly I have stated that I don't expect Wal Mart or big box retailers to go anywhere. What I have stated is that what local governments do, ours in particular is undermine LOCAL opportunity and LOCAL business by dipping into our tax funds and by giving big tax breaks to those entities while doing NOTHING for LOCAL business. Big boxes already have an advantage. Why not use some of those funds being afforded to big box and national chains to support and grow opportunity for LOCAL business owners? My problem is is that LOCALS have a difficult enough time competing. Using taxpayer dollars to kill and bury these LOCAL companies is nuts. I've posted the economic benefits of LOCAL. Local business keeps $45 per 100 IN the community. Nationals and big box leaves maybe $13. Support and grow LOCAL business and the local economy grows.

This area makes such little effort to incorporate local into the scene.

Let's take the Riverside example. The city will cut it's throat to give Pyramid tax concessions, Already has even, A couple of national restaurant chains will move in and suck $$$ out of the community. They won't buy local ag products, they might use local builders but I doubt it. All of their marketing $$$ will go to a firm or firms somewhere other than here. Now take a locally supported restaurant in that same spot. They'd contribute 4x of what the chain contributes. They'd prob use local marketing, might buy local ag products. For really doing nothing different other than shifting local Ec Dev focus a little. *The oversimplified math works out to be $65k being kept in the LOCAL economy for the national and about $225k for the local. Sales tax is constant between the two so no diff. I can name at least 10 locals that have gone out since the big influx of chains in just the past few years. The math really is staggering. I've posted it repeatedly in using a couple of different models and University studies.

* My apologies. Based on $500k annual sales.

Guess what, there are MANY folks here that would follow their dreams of business ownership and entrepreneurship if there was any hope at success or support. Folks that throw boxes for Wal Mart for example.

I absolutely believe that great things can happen for this area. Esp in the area of Agriculture. If I thought for a second that people would get off their asses and do something other than complain and bitch, I'd actually enjoy being part of the process.

I tried to get something going with MV Green and quickly realized that there were going to be hurdles. I got involved with Revitalizing Utica and was pretty much told to slow down. I tried to get on board with the City's Master Plan process. No go. I don't take any of this personal. The way I see it, I can fight here and it truly could be a worthwhile battle or I take the path of least resistance and go. But sit and wallow in it I won't.

To let it just happen and NOT take action is death. We're watching it right before out eyes.

Take a quick look at this list and see if any of these apply here.

www.goodjobsfirst.org/smart_growth/harms_of_bigbox.cfm

[rodwilson]

And I'd just like to add this for the naysayers who say it's not possible in NY. And these stats surprised me even:

* According to a study conducted by the Axiom Corp., Albany and its environs are the top-ranked standard test market for new business and retail products, because its population mirrors the characteristics of the U.S. consumer population as a whole more than any other.[66] (2004)
* Forbes ranked Albany-Schenectady-Troy as the third best place in the country with the best education and named Albany a Top IQ Campus as part of its 150 Places to Live Rich. (2005)
* Albany-Schenectady-Troy is one of the healthiest communities in the nation according to Self Magazine. (2006)
* Small Times magazine ranked University at Albany's College of Nanoscale Science and Engineering as the best in the country for micro and nanotechnology. The school was tops in education, facilities and industry outreach. (2006)
* MSN Money named Albany-Schenectady-Troy as the seventh fastest-growing region that is still cheap. (2005)
* Popular Science named Albany among its top cities for technology. (2005)
* Crystal IS made Deloitte’s Technology Fast 500 – a ranking of the fastest growing tech companies in the U.S. On2 Technologies, Albany Molecular Research and AngioDynamics are among the fastest growing New York companies. CORESense, Inc. was named New York’s Rising Star Award Winner. (2005)
* Albany Molecular Research and Intermagnetics General both made Red Herring’s Small Cap 100 list for bioscience. (2005)
* Forbes ranked Albany the 18th best place to live and do business. (2006)
* Forbes ranked Albany the 30th best place for work. (2006)
* Forbes ranked Albany the 6th best housing market in the US.[67] (2007)
* S&P puts Albany's credit rating at AA-, the highest of any city in the Capital District according to the November 20 edition of the Times Union.
* Albany ranked among the 25 strongest housing markets in the US during the toughest economic conditions of 2008.[68]
* Albany has been named an All-America City on multiple occasions, most recently in 1991 and 2009.[69]

Clearly we don't have the right people locally nor are we sending the right people to Albany or to Washington.

[rodwilson]

Hey Ralph, off topic but thought you might be interested in this.

www.wktv.com/news/health/?feed=bim&id=67725437

Oh and Clipper, I was wrong. I was near a Wal Mart. Last Christmas I rang a bell in front of the one in New Hartford. Just thought I'd come clean ;D

[Clipper]

Tell me it's not so Rod! haha. At least they let you ring a bell outside their store. Target Stores here don't allow the salvation army kettles and bell ringers here. Do they allow it in NH? You didn't slip inside that den of iniquity and use the potty did ya?

My raggedy old knees can't hold up to the bell ringer thing. I do christmas gift packing and sorting for the needy kids and I serve meals at the salvation army and Haven of Rest missions for the holiday season. We are usually in Utica area for the actual Christmas holiday, but this year we are not coming North for the holidays, so we may be able to do more for the needy. Congrats on finding the time to help others with your work and your family obligations. Those kind of blessings come back to you many times over my friend.

( I darn sure would not be standing outside in your NY State winter to ring a bell, LOL You are a hardy soul to say the least)

[bobbbiez]

Nov 3, 2009 23:33:47 GMT -5 @rodwilson said:

Hey Ralph, off topic but thought you might be interested in this.

www.wktv.com/news/health/?feed=bim&id=67725437

Oh and Clipper, I was wrong. I was near a Wal Mart. Last Christmas I rang a bell in front of the one in New Hartford. Just thought I'd come clean ;D

Rod, I read the Consumer's report you posted about Nexium. and would like to respond to it.
As far as I'm concerned I totally disagree with their statement,"a generic or an over-the-counter would work just as well." Right from early stages in my life I have been affected with a variety of stomach problems including acid reflux that seems to have started everything else wrong to do with my stomach. For many, many years have tried just about everything over the counter and other drugs prescribed by my Doc with nothing working to correct my problems. Finally two years ago my Doc prescribed the "little purple pill," Nexium, and it was a God sent. Nexium has corrected and given me big relief from my stomach problems. Many others in my family and a lot of my friends also rave about the "little purple pill."
I do agree it is more expensive then the others, but in this case, one is getting exactly what they're paying for and that is relief from what can be a very horrible condition. Some times we have to endure the expensive when it definitely works to improve our health-welfare.
With my prescription plan I don't paid what the Consumer's report listed. I pay $32.00 out of my pocket and it's not a cost I would consider bitching about.

ps: Kudos to you my friend. Not only for donating your time to a great cause but in doing that, Bravo, also for having to endure the cruel weather elements. My hat is off to you.

[rodwilson]

I didn't Clipper but I MIGHT have made some use of that big ol' overhead heater they have just inside the door. And kudos to you for your efforts. Most of my events with wrapping paper end up exactly that, an event.

Good piece bobbieZ. I don't use it, just saw the article and recalled Ralph commenting on it and thought I'd share it. Users would def know far more than me about it and far more capable of evaluating the merits of the article.

Good luck to your Wal-Ma...whoops I mean Yankees tonight bobbieZ. Go Phillies!

And thanks. I'm a snowboarder (or I at least go down big hills with one strapped on trying to avoid serious injury) so I'm all geared up for the cold. Heck, I'm waiting for it to snow right now! My 5 year old saw it on tv a few weeks back and was like "Whoa. WHAT is that? I wanna do that." We're trying to convince mom

BTW, anybody have an in on the local employment front? A poster @ Topix that reports that Empire Aero @ Griffiss laid off 100 this morning. The day AFTER elections. Convenient huh? Anyone know if this is true?

[bobbbiez]

"Waiting for snow"..........................WHAT! ARE YOU NUTS? Or maybe just not old enough yet.

Hey, it wasn't that many years ago when I raced snowmobiles on Dick Garvin's powder-puff team for Ski-Doo and I'd be outside on the coldest days all day and into the nights. Now, I freeze my dupa off inside the house with the heat on and on high. "Those were the days my friend...."

Phillies.....who are they?

The only reason they're still in it is the Yankees wanted to win the title, World Champs, at home. ;D

GO NEW YORK YANKS!

[rodwilson]

My wife asks the same. We're driving to Ohio for Thanksgiving so it's her position that if it snows or ices during the trip, I'm somehow involved.

I'm a Pirates fan so I've gotta root for someone. And if you're gonna do it, it's prob best to do it at home.

[Clipper]

Kathy has, and my dad had, severe acid reflux disease. Both tried every other product marketed for the problem, and both found total relief only with Nexium.

It may be expensive, but so it treatment for esophageal cancer. It really works and it allows a person to sleep that had for years been plagued with reflux if they ate so much as a piece of toast after about 7 PM.

I am the first one to bitch about the high cost of prescription drugs and other medical care, but some drugs are well worth the money and the costs of research and development have to be recovered somewhere along the line. My dad had essential tremor, and his hands shook so badly that he was unable to hold a book, use the remote, or feed himself for many years. He took a drug called Topomax, and anti seizure drug for awhile and it relieved the shaking enough for him to feed himself and to be able to read a book. That drug cost $600 a month for two tablets a day.

By the way Rod. You have finally posted a link that has peaked my interest, and that I find informative without a bunch of useless statistics. That would be the "good jobs first" site. The facts and theories stated by that group make sense.

Anyone can bolster an opinion with stats if they wish to. You can find statistics somewhere to support almost any position. The good jobs first site states the facts in a plain, and simple common sense fashion that takes the confusion and statistical crap out of the equation.

So now that we assume to know the effects on big box contributing to urban sprawl, what can be done about it, considering the fact that it is primarily the shopping habits of the American consumer that has made it so popular? What the majority of consumers want drives the retail arena. Do you think it is possible to draw consumers back to urban cores with anything other than quirky little boutique type shops and restaurants? IS there a retail future for any old downtown areas, other than entertainment venues, and office space or lofts?

Do you actually see a city the size of Utica successfully making itself over into a "main street" community like Saratoga, Clinton NY, or Cooperstown?

One of the things stated on the Good Jobs First site was a suggestion somewhere that the codes for older homes be less stringent. I feel just the opposite. I think they should be strong enough to force slumlords to either spend the bucks to fix the houses, or force them to abandon them or tear them down. We can't wait for arson fires to leave the city with enough greenfield space to rebuild itself from the inside out.

How do you explain to the average American that they should boycott big box retailers, because of the effect that they have had on America's economy, when it is that same economy that has driven many of them to shop there to begin with? How do you tell someone that you don't want their 2 or 3 hundred jobs because they don't pay enough, and that you would rather see people leave the area or stay and draw unemployment and welfare?

They may not be ideal jobs, but they ARE employment, and they DO feed families, even if you think that that is about all they do.

You posted stats on the Albany area. I attribute some of the successes in both Albany and Syracuse to their locations with interstate highway access both North and South, as well as East and West. Utica-Rome is kind of in the hinterlands, caught in between those two major areas. How can Utica compete with those logistical advantages?

Then there is the political climate in the area. They just last night ousted a very dedicated and hard working young man from the county board of legislators in favor of going back to the same old crap with one of the city's "good old boys". How does one manage to change the entire political complexion of the area, when the crooks and thieves have run the area's politics for so long? Everyone bitches about the politics daily, and then on election day go to the polls and vote for another term of the status quo corruption and crap.

While you have decided against staying in the area, how would you have liked to see the city change to morph into your vision of what could have been? How does one break their hometown free from the same old East Utica, backroom bullshit politics that have ruled the city for eons? Kind of overwhelming isn't it? And to think that I still have this burning desire to come back there to live. It IS my hometown and the place where I was born and where I want to take my last breath.

[bobbbiez]

Geez.......after writing that book you mean ya still have a breath left in ya? ;D Damn you're good!