Revitalizing Utica

[Clipper]

I think that blaming walmart for the flu vaccine shortage is a little over the top. Here in Tennessee there are shots available at Krogers Markets, Food City Markets, Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid, and other commercial outlets. There are also priority allocations for school children at school clinics, and other vulnerable groups. The shortages of vaccine are because they didn't realize the numbers that would want the shots, and didn't start early enough to produce the quantity necessary to meet all the requirements.

The anti Walmart sentiment is crap. I doubt very much that Huffy bikes were moved to Mexico because of a Walmart contract.

Walmart has a step up on the rest of the big box stores, but I have to think if it wasn't walmart, it would be Kmart or Magic Mart or someone else that succeeded in making the mom and pops a thing of the past.

Hell, if ya don't like Walmart don't shop there, but we can't blame the entire worlds problems on Bentonville Arkansas and the Walton family. The same thing goes for their so called low wages and lack of benefits. Check the other markets and stores. Nobody in retail pays crap or provides bennies. Most retailers work their people just short of the number of hours to require them to be labeled as full time and eligible for benefits.

What the hell, did everyone have a coronary when McDonalds started putting the Sloppy Joe's Greasy Spoon Diner out of business, or Jiffy Lube put the local garage out of business?

A $7 an hour retail job is better than no job at all. A $10 warehouse job is better than unemployment, when all the manufacturing has left town. Blame taxes and government for the economy, not Walmart or Lowes or Home Depot.

[bobbbiez]

Not trying to defend Wal-Mart but have to say it as it is. Went to my Doc last week but couldn't get either shot because I had an infection and he felt it wasn't a good idea at this time. He said he only had five more shots left out of his supply. I thought that was pretty weird because the very next day our senior center here in W.Utica was giving them out to their members, so I asked my Doc "what's up with that?"

He told me it has everything to do with the supplier the doctors or organizations or stores uses and his suck. He said next year he will be changing that for sure.

Have to believe that is why some have it and some don't or not enough.

[Clipper]

Exactly Sunshine. There are some places have more than enough, and some places that have none. We have Walgreen's charging $25 a shot and the health department holding weekly free clinics and not running out. Go figure. The VA has held clinics every Saturday for over a month and if you have a regular primary care appointment, you are given the shot at that time instead.

My private civilian doctor is out of vaccine too, but the VA has plenty. It seems that the small doctors practices are the one's having trouble keeping it in adequate supply, but there ARE places to get the shot if you need it.

[rodwilson]

Clipper, my point is is that perhaps vaccinations should be left to Physicians and not big box retail. I have no desire to take my family to a big box retailer because it's become the new model. Physician's offices and groups shouldn't have to compete with retailers for the supply. Like I said earlier, my kid's ped is with St. E's. Can't get much bigger than that around here. And I'm pretty sure we wouldn't qualify @ the VA. And our county is out and has had to cancel the clinics they had scheduled. AND, we pay a good buck for private health insurance. Why should I have to go into my pocket so Wal-Mart and other retailers can make a buck?

Additionally, the posts about Huffy AND Rubbermaid are spot on.

"This report tells the stories of four Ohio companies that sell to Wal-Mart. The loss of jobs at the Huffy Corp., Rubbermaid, Mr. Coffee and Thomson factories in Ohio demonstrates how Wal-Mart pressures suppliers to send Ohio jobs overseas. These jobs exported by Wal-Mart suppliers represent just a handful of the hundreds of thousands of good jobs Ohio has lost in the new Wal-Mart economy. Other such Wal-Mart suppliers as Hasbro, Ohio Art, Texas Instruments Inc., Hoover, World Kitchen Inc. and Philips also have closed plants in Ohio."

www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/walmart/upload/report_ohio.pdf

www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

There are towns and cities that simply won't allow Wal-Mart development for a reason.

"What the hell, did everyone have a coronary when McDonalds started putting the Sloppy Joe's Greasy Spoon Diner out of business, or Jiffy Lube put the local garage out of business?" Some but probably not nearly as much as they should have.

[rodwilson]

And I just spotted this over @ Topix regarding Home Depot and Lowe's. There goes another local business.

www.topix.com/forum/city/utica-ny/TG7BN4D3N2H9MSAR9

[Clipper]

I don't disagree that Walmart puts others out of business, but companies like Vlasic Pickles simply did not use their heads when they bottled gallon jugs of pickles, knowing it would undercut their whole pricing structure. Other companies mentioned, such as Snapper lawn mowers, simply refused to be part of the whole Walmart scheme of retailing, and they survived and thrive. Where we live if you don't mow with a Craftsman, chances are you are riding on a snapper rider. If enough companies simply banded together and refused to buckle to the demands or to contract with Walmart, the market would control Walmart instead of Walmart controlling the market. As far a Chinese goods, ALL the major retailers are buying overseas, and it is not only walmart that has pushed industry offshore.

Actually Walmart and Walgreens DID bill private insurance for the shots and one didn't have to sit in a waiting room, steeping in viruses and other crap while waiting for an hour or so to see the doctor. I just verified that fact with a phone call to both Walmart and Walgreen's.

I wonder Rod if it isn't partially a regional problem. The only shortages that are making the news here are for the H1N1 vaccine, not the seasonal flu vaccine. Walgreen's and Walmart were only giving the seasonal vaccines, and the only reason they were able to market that program was because of public panic and government support of the idea in order to more quickly vaccinate a larger segment of the population than are usually in line to get the shots.

I just chuckle when I hear the same old anti-walmart sentiment. They are simply an extremely successful example of the good old American free enterprise system. Unions, taxes, and other production costs push more jobs off shore than the few examples noted of Walmart forcing the moves with contract prices.

The pickle example cracks me up. How stupid to even agree to bottle pickles in a gallon jug for Walmart when they have to know up front that it will hurt sales of their smaller bottles of somewhat overpriced pickles.

I understand the principle that you back, but big box stores are here to stay and mom and pops are on their way out. Simple fact, driven by that same free enterprise system. The same thing holds true for inner city businesses. Unless you can find a unique marketing strategy, business is simply migrating to the outer fringes of the cities.

I have gone astray from the flu shot issue, but the anti Walmart lobby cracks me up because while many are bitching about Walmart, they are munching on snacks labeled "great value" or their wives are out shopping at Walmart with smiles on their faces. Abingdon Virginia has fought a Walmart development for years, but I would wager that a majority of the residents fighting the project travel the 10 miles to shop at the Bristol Va store, and shop at Magic Mart and K Mart, not the mom and pops on main street.

However one looks at it, it is labeled "progress". It is kinda like the "change" that many of you younger folks voted for. It is not always what we thought it might be. It may be a simple generational thing. A difference between the perceived "old and ignorant" and the "young and naive".

I know that my posts are long, but I simply bring all my points of discussion into print. I unfortunately cannot sit down over coffee with you, as those that live in Utica might, so I have to discuss from my keyboard. Know for a fact that I am not "anti Rod Wilson" in my posting Rod. I DO respect all of your efforts, although I don't agree with a few minor details, LOL.

[rodwilson]

Understand the Wal-Mart deal. My biggest argument against is the large role that government plays in their dominance. The issue isn't exclusive to Wal-Mart. They've just mastered the concepts. The fact is is that the US economy can't survive on these concepts. This is not healthy competition, it's absolute control. I don't label it as progress at all. What really needs to happen is that we need to digress, to get back to what worked.

I get the value of getting a flu shot clinics but it shouldn't come at a cost to those that choose their private practitioner. All insurances don't participate and I'd be curious to see what it does to the cost. I think healthcare is one of the few things that should have strong oversight. Perhaps practitioners should hold clinics. Just my opinion.

And the generational issue could be valid. With no disrespect to anyone, I'm still out here earning a living, trying to create better opportunities for my children. I am concerned about what's ahead for my kids. Maybe I feel so strongly about it because of the lack of opportunity and the poor economy here. Wal-Mart dominates here and is a glaring example of the poor local economics. I do although feel much more inspired and motivated when I think about moving. ;D

[Clipper]

Flu shot clinics may be the answer, but then insurance still will pay for an office visit along with the cost of the shot. Actually the pharmacy setting saves the insurance company money as well as only requiring a pharmacy copay as opposed to an office visit copay.

I agree that we could possibly regain some things by digressing, but we both know THAT is not going to happen in our lifetimes. It is our "spoiled by convenience" American lifestyle that has brought us to where we are now. Most, myself included, was totally excited to find a "one stop" shopping experience available when Walmart first came up with the "supercenter" concept, although I seldom buy groceries there now. Nobody seems to have been able to look ahead at what impact it would have on the entire retail industry.

As for your concern with creating opportunities for you children, I agree with that idea completely, but realistically, that is going to have to be accomplished by going with the current situation, and preparing them and educating them to compete and flourish in whatever employment arena is available when they reach adulthood.

I actually fear for the entire "American way of life" as I get older. I have watched the decline of industry for my entire life. War once drove the economy and industry, but even military technology has gone offshore with companies like the former GE and others. Computer technology developed much faster and much cheaper in Japan and other countries than it did here. Auto manufacturers produced foreign cars that were equal and superior to the quality of American built cars and did it cheaper. They even built plants here and hire American workers, while Detroit languished and failed at the mercy of unions, greedy autoworkers, and greedy executives.

Drive a Honda minivan and then drive a Dodge Caravan, and you will immediately see why foreign auto makers kick Detroit's ass.

One could call it unpatriotic or selling out to buy foreign goods, but most of us call it just plain everyday economics. We shop to get the best value for our money, no matter where the goods are made. That is why it is not going to be easily reversed, and why few, if any, companies will bring their manufacturing jobs back to the US.

I grieve WITH you for the American worker and for our grandchildren and what their future may hold, but I, as most others, simply have to purchase what is within our means, wherever we are able to purchase it most economically.

Our government doesn't help. In the case of Obama care, we have seen it go from a "pill that will be hard to swallow", to an attempt to transform it into a "rectal suppository" that Pelosi and Reid are trying to cram up our butts. Government intervention simply ends up costing the average taxpayer even more, rather than remedying a situation. Regulation of the private insurance business may work, but government healthcare will be an overwhelming financial burden and disaster to the average American taxpayer.

I actually support most of your efforts and applaud your stamina and ambition in trying to bring about change, but some things have unfortunately gone beyond the point of no return, and sadly we are going to suffer for generations for our own ignorance and lack of foresight.

My generation (most likely the same generation as your parents) and those that went before us, have to take the blame for allowing things to decline to where we are today. We all do the best we can for our children, and not many of us look beyond the next generation in our desire to make things easier for them. I know that in my younger years, my personal concerns were selfishly focused on what was good for MY kids. Somewhat shortsighted, but true for most parents.

[rodwilson]

There has to be a medium with the flu shot clinic. Perhaps a new rated visit and charge for just a vaccine administered by the nursing staff.

I also hear you loud and clear on the Honda vs Dodge deal. At least Honda builds some here. I do truly understand the realities and don't view so much as a lack of patriotism as it should be recognized as a wakeup call for US companies.

I think what's got to change is the American attitude and a large chunk taken out of government. It's that part and taxes that appeals to me with regard to Will's group. People here have truly lost all sense of what really matters and what really qualify as needs. We hear much talk in certain circles about endangered animals and their environment but we never hear about the fact that those most displaced are humans, people. We've gotten so far away from the natural process and rules of nature that we are incredibly dysfunctional. We've abandoned the very things that need to be done to chase after a buck to make 2 car payments, a bloated mortgage and list goes on. The dollar is almighty. We don't raise our own children, we have little sense of community or sense stewardship for our environment or surroundings. American society has become too difficult for many to navigate. Not everyone is designed of even wants to be on the threshold of "progress".

I haven't yet gotten to the point of hopelessness. in fact I see small signs everywhere that more and more people are recognizing and adopting attitudes reflecting much of what I've shared throughout this thread. Local food systems and local economies. I'm not about extremes or all or nothing but a balance needs to established and maintained.

[Clipper]

Even as a hardheaded "set in my ways" old fart, I see your points and I also support much of what Will's group seeks to change. I have the deepest respect for Frank and his principles, and I always sit up and take notice of an issue that Frank finds worthy. Frank's participation and support, bring credence to the effort all by itself in my eyes. (Frankcor from here on the forum) The libertarian cause and agenda becomes more desireable every day

I also agree with the dysfunctional state of affairs in America. We have become a nation that is not happy with a three bedroom home, where there is a room for male children, a room for female children, and a master bedroom for mom and dad. We have to have 5 or 6 bedrooms and 3 or 4 bathrooms so we don't have to walk more than 10 feet to pee.

People have homes that they will never pay off. They have mortgages that have payments so high that they have little left for savings. As a result, when kids hit college age, too many parents are forced to remortgage these plush and expensive homes to pay for college. Mortgages that will never be paid off in their lifetimes.

My generation grew up in three bedroom houses, where one asked the rest of the household if anyone needed to go to the bathroom before we locked the door of the only bathroom to take a shower. I shared a room with my brother my childhood. I did not need a couple of hundred square feet of "my own space" and a cable connection for a tv and computer in each bedroom.

It simply amazes me that car payments are now much higher than mortgage payments used to be, and mortgage payments are what used to be more than a months salary for most families. My first pickup truck was $1900. My present truck was stickered at $32K and I bought it for $23K. My first mortgage payment was $125 a month for a three bedroom raised ranch house that cost $27000. For someone my age, it is hard to see such a rise in cost over the years as "progress" haha.

[gearofzanzibar]

Oct 29, 2009 8:02:56 GMT -5 @rodwilson said:

Clipper, my point is is that perhaps vaccinations should be left to Physicians and not big box retail.

Seriously, why? Isn't it far more efficient to use the big box model? Is the jab from a doctor in any way superior to the jab from a PA or RN?

Additionally, the posts about Huffy AND Rubbermaid are spot on.

Solid companies never die. Huffy and Rubbermaid had, by definition, flawed business models. *Every* manufacturer of commodity goods competes on a perfectly level playing field based on price- that's why the goods are a commodity to begin with.

As a small manufacturer myself I know I'll never go out of business because of Walmart because price isn't my selling point. I sell a niche product to a niche market that's willing to pay a premium for the absolute best quality and aesthetics. For every Huffy that farms out their work overseas there are a thousand companies like mine.

Walmart has revolutionized mass-market retailing to the benefit of everyone. More importantly, the techniques and procedures they use are tools that every business can and should use.

[rodwilson]

Seriously. Perhaps not a Physician. I'll take an RN or a PA. I just don't think doing it in a shopping center is the place for it. And as a matter of fact, I've been stuck by some folks who in no way shape or form should ever hold a syringe. Vaccines to a degree still create much concern for some people.

Wal-Mart is a machine motivated ONLY by profitability. They care little for the people that they employ or the communities that they devour tax payer resources from to come in and destroy economies. The examples are numerous and overwhelming. So while you're saving a couple of bucks at the counter, you're paying with jobs, with the loss of real dollars from the local community and with higher property taxes. I'd be interested to hear your description of a society the run entirely by a few mega corporations.

I understand perfectly your example of the niche market, I'm in one myself. I do have to compete with inferior, cheaper products. "For every Huffy that farms out their work overseas there are a thousand companies like mine." This becomes less and less true on a daily basis. I can't tell you the last time I called a customer service line and spoke to an American.

"*Every* manufacturer of commodity goods competes on a perfectly level playing field based on price- that's why the goods are a commodity to begin with." I don't quite understand this comment. The Variable are considerable. Tax rates, employment costs. access to materials, materials cost. If all of these are inconsequential, why have so many manufacturers left NY let alone the country?

In the case of Rubbermaid. The cost of oil went through the roof as a result so did the cost of plastics materials. So the production costs skyrocketed while the contract price remained the same. Perhaps their flaw was a failure to foresee this possibility but their ability to control rising costs were limited to say the least. Wal-Mart simply doesn't care. In an effort to maintain sales and market shares they demanded the contracted products at the contracted price. They could have made a concession. Instead, Rubbermaid and Huffy (same boat) saved $$$ by moving jobs out of the county. But hey, we got some retail jobs instead. the trade off math doesn't work.

If you're goal is complete domination without any regard to anything but profitability, then they are right on top of the heap. The problem is that all of those issues outside of profit are truly more significant that people realized.

[rodwilson]

Now it could be me but caskets? Damn, they're even going to put Roefaro out of work.

mashable.com/2009/10/28/walmart-caskets/

www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=12569361

At least they're made in the USA!

[gearofzanzibar]

Oct 29, 2009 17:11:27 GMT -5 @rodwilson said:

Seriously. Perhaps not a Physician. I'll take an RN or a PA. I just don't think doing it in a shopping center is the place for it.

I'm sure there are a lot of doctors that would agree with you, since trivial, in-office procedures are the main profit drivers for medical practices. One of the easiest ways to cut health care costs is to let trained professionals concentrate on cases that actually require their expertise and training. A vaccination? Swab, jab, depress plunger. Cheap and easy. Of course, you still have the option of seeing a doctor for the procedure if you think it's really necessary, but if someone can do the same job for less, why bother?

Wal-Mart is a machine motivated ONLY by profitability.

No, it's not. You mean the Wal-Mart that almost single-handedly cut the cost of nearly every generic prescription to $4? The Wal-Mart that flooded every American disaster zone of the last two decades with supplies and resources within hours? The Wal-Mart that donates millions to charity?

The profit motive is a strong motivator for the company, but it's not the only one. Painting it as some kind of single-minded rapacious monster is simplistic and facile.

They care little for the people that they employ or the communities that they devour tax payer resources from to come in and destroy economies.

Then how do they keep their brutally exploited and abused employees from, you know, quitting? If they care so little for them why do I see the same faces at the checkout and in the aisles for years? Is it possible that, horror of horrors, the employees aren't the mindless, moon-faced, stupid sheep you think they are?

So while you're saving a couple of bucks at the counter, you're paying with jobs, with the loss of real dollars from the local community and with higher property taxes.

Because Wal-Mart drives inefficient companies out of business? That's a *good* thing. The best thing that could possibly happen to consumers is that a business can't compete with Wal-Mart on price, since that means they're forced to compete using service, selection, quality, or the dozens of other variables that go into a purchase decision.

I'd be interested to hear your description of a society the run entirely by a few mega corporations.

Well, we've already soon more than a few societies where competition was to be avoided at all costs...and those experiments didn't work out too well.

I understand perfectly your example of the niche market, I'm in one myself. I do have to compete with inferior, cheaper products.

And that's a good thing, isn't it? Otherwise there would be no motivation to improve your own product or service. I *love* my competitors, and I'm more than happy to steer a potential customer to them if I think they'd be a better fit. There's a place for inexpensive, utilitarian goods as well as high-end, high-quality ones. That's the glory of the marketplace- there's room for everyone, and everyone benefits from having all those choices.

This becomes less and less true on a daily basis. I can't tell you the last time I called a customer service line and spoke to an American.

There are more manufacturers in the US today than ever before. They're small, they're agile, and they're creating more products than in any other time of history. For every Huffy moving to Mexico there are probably a dozen boutique bike builders employing just as many people as a group.

Thanks to the internet I can sell my goods around the world, something that was impossible twenty years ago. There's no possible way I could have supported myself producing the kind of high-quality metalwork I do back then- there simply wasn't enough local demand. Now close to half my customers are outside the US.

For all the businesses like mine Wal-Mart matters not a whit.

"*Every* manufacturer of commodity goods competes on a perfectly level playing field based on price- that's why the goods are a commodity to begin with." I don't quite understand this comment. The Variable are considerable. Tax rates, employment costs. access to materials, materials cost. If all of these are inconsequential, why have so many manufacturers left NY let alone the country?

To quote Wikipedia:

A commodity is some good for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative differentiation across a market. It is a product that is the same no matter who produces it, such as petroleum, notebook paper, or milk.

Commoditization occurs as a goods or services market loses differentiation across its supply base, often by the diffusion of the intellectual capital necessary to acquire or produce it efficiently. As such, goods that formerly carried premium margins for market participants have become commodities, such as generic pharmaceuticals and silicon chips.

Wal-Mart is the king of commoditization, and that's a very, very good thing. If the only difference between products is price everyone wins when the commodity's price goes as low as possible. That's where qualitative differences in product assert themselves, opening up the market to multiple vendors and competitors.

In the case of Rubbermaid. The cost of oil went through the roof as a result so did the cost of plastics materials. So the production costs skyrocketed while the contract price remained the same. Perhaps their flaw was a failure to foresee this possibility but their ability to control rising costs were limited to say the least.

When Rubbermaid refused to meet Wal-Mart's price targets they were dropped and replaced by Sterilite, a company that could meet them because they were more efficient. Rubbermaid downsized, was bought out, and came back with more efficient manufacturing and product development. Bad for the employees of Rubbermaid, no doubt, but in the end a net win for everyone else.

The Rubbermaid story isn't an indictment of Wal-Mart, it's a vindication.

If you're goal is complete domination without any regard to anything but profitability, then they are right on top of the heap. The problem is that all of those issues outside of profit are truly more significant that people realized.

I think we actually agree about more than we disagree, but we're coming at the same conclusion from opposite directions. You see Wal-Mart as negative for the same reasons I see it as a positive- it encourages efficiency. In the short term commiditization is painful and costs jobs, but in the long term it opens up even more economic possibilities by setting up a baseline for qualitative competition. I'll never be able to sell a stool for less than Wal-Mart, but that just means I have to make stools that people *will* pay more for. I'm more than happy for Bentonville to dominate the <$40 stool market since their customers wouldn't be interested in my artisanal stools anyway.* Their customers get what they want, my customers get what they want, and everybody wins.




*It still cracks me up every time I write "artisanal stools". I'm a ten-year old kid at heart.

[snickers]

Oct 28, 2009 21:09:40 GMT -5 Clipper said:

I think that blaming walmart for the flu vaccine shortage is a little over the top. Here in Tennessee there are shots available at Krogers Markets, Food City Markets, Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid, and other commercial outlets. There are also priority allocations for school children at school clinics, and other vulnerable groups. The shortages of vaccine are because they didn't realize the numbers that would want the shots, and didn't start early enough to produce the quantity necessary to meet all the requirements.

The anti Walmart sentiment is crap. I doubt very much that Huffy bikes were moved to Mexico because of a Walmart contract.

Walmart has a step up on the rest of the big box stores, but I have to think if it wasn't walmart, it would be Kmart or Magic Mart or someone else that succeeded in making the mom and pops a thing of the past.

Hell, if ya don't like Walmart don't shop there, but we can't blame the entire worlds problems on Bentonville Arkansas and the Walton family. The same thing goes for their so called low wages and lack of benefits. Check the other markets and stores. Nobody in retail pays crap or provides bennies. Most retailers work their people just short of the number of hours to require them to be labeled as full time and eligible for benefits.

What the hell, did everyone have a coronary when McDonalds started putting the Sloppy Joe's Greasy Spoon Diner out of business, or Jiffy Lube put the local garage out of business?

A $7 an hour retail job is better than no job at all. A $10 warehouse job is better than unemployment, when all the manufacturing has left town. Blame taxes and government for the economy, not Walmart or Lowes or Home Depot.

Bravo! Well put!