Old Views

[dgriffin]

If I were to put the bridge that I remember from the 1950's and early 60's down on top of Baggs Square as it existed on the 1883 map, it would look like this.

[dgriffin]

Baggs Hotel was torn down, and in its place a replica of Moses Baggs' original tavern was erected. (Although it seems odd his original tavern was of stone. It DOES look like a WPA project, but it might have been erected earlier than the 1930's. Is there a historian in the house?) Here's a photo of the replica (Thank you, Mrs. Macomber.)

It is set back from Main St., today very near the new bridge.

[dgriffin]

And here I've drawn over the Bing Birdseye satellite photo. If it makes any sense, it is a representation of Baggs Square of the 1940's and 50's. Baggs' Hotel was gone by then, of course, replaced by the Memorial Tavern. And Baggs Square, instead of being the huge open space seen in the above engraving, was by then sort of a widening in the road, where Genesee, John, Main and Whitesboro all met at the foot of the bridge that went over the railroad tracks to North Utica.

[dgriffin]

So the guy who took THIS photo of the smaller bridge off in the distance, had climbed a telephone pole roughly at the foot of where a newer bridge would stand in the 1950's, and where he would be BENEATH that part of the bridge today that dumps North Utica traffic on to Genesee St. in downtown Utica.

Moses Baggs wouldn't recognize a thing.

The vehicles look to me like late 20's or real early 30's, so we can assume the Memorial Tavern that replaced the Baggs Hotel wasn't built until the 30's. And it does look like a WPA project.

[fiona]

Dave: there's something odd about that photo of the corner of Bleeker and Genesee looking east. You are right about the clock steeple and St Johns has two steeples, does it not? Often times photos were doctored just as they are today. My freind showed me some pics he had taken off the net of a parade in Utica in the 1890's. The photo was clearly doctored to make it look like there were more people than there were, especially those satnding in windows, and on top of buildings. He pointed that out to me where I didn't see it. In this photo you posted the facades almost look "false". Are you sure it was Utica NY? Also, I tried to enlarge it, but couldn't.

[fiona]

I don't know if that's a WPA project. I always thought it was real. Well, from a kid's point of view, real enough I guess. I should think it is easy enough to find this out. Today this building is filled with christmas lights, trash and other stuff. And who knows it's there? Do all those thousands of people whizzing by in their cars ever even think about it? I think not.

[dgriffin]

I'm wrong about the small building at the old Baggs Square being a memorial to Moses Baggs (spelled ending with an 's') or a replica of his tavern. Or, for that matter, a WPA project. Hey, zero out of three ain't bad! (Where did I get these ideas? From the Internet, of course.)



While many believe the small stone building in the Baggs Memorial Park where Main Street meets Baggs Square was erected by the last widow Mrs. Baggs in honor of her husband, the literature says instead it was erected by Mrs. Thomas R. Proctor, who might be considered functionally the same as the last Widow Baggs, although she would not appreciate the association.

This from, "New York, A Guide To The Empire State," the WPA historical work of the late 1930's.


www.windsweptpress.com/images/baggs memorial.jpg[/img]


Further on T.R. Proctor:

[dgriffin]

Sept 21, 2009 13:25:43 GMT -5 fiona said:

Dave: there's something odd about that photo of the corner of Bleeker and Genesee looking east. You are right about the clock steeple and St Johns has two steeples, does it not? Often times photos were doctored just as they are today. My freind showed me some pics he had taken off the net of a parade in Utica in the 1890's. The photo was clearly doctored to make it look like there were more people than there were, especially those satnding in windows, and on top of buildings. He pointed that out to me where I didn't see it. In this photo you posted the facades almost look "false". Are you sure it was Utica NY? Also, I tried to enlarge it, but couldn't.

Fiona, I hadn't thought of the possibility of the photos being doctored. Certainly possible. But the angle does seem to match the map's southeast corner.

OCHS says St. John's Church was "organized in 1819" and the current building built in 1869. My great-greats were at St. Johns when ancestor Michael arrived in 1824, and I read somewhere that 1869 was when the church was re-built after a fire. I'll keep looking for the reference, but I think I remember reading St. John's had only one steeple before the fire.

Here's a photo of the 1869 St. John's, as it also looks now.


www.windsweptpress.com/images/St. Johns 1869.jpg[/img]


Here's a photo of the view from City Hall Tower, no date given. You can see the twin spires off in the distance, as well as only horse drawn vehicles (I think) on Genesee Street, just for a rough date.


www.windsweptpress.com/images/city hall view.jpg[/img]


Guess what? The spires in the above photo have a shape (to my mind) more resembling the clock tower than the newer 1869 church spires. Is it possible a second tower in the busy corner photo was doctored out for artistic balance? Or was there indeed only one clock tower. Or was the photo actually taken in Rochester?

[jon hynes]

Sept 22, 2009 21:35:21 GMT -5 @dgriffin said:

Here's a photo of the view from City Hall Tower, no date given. You can see the twin spires off in the distance, as well as only horse drawn vehicles (I think) on Genesee Street, just for a rough date.

www.windsweptpress.com/images/city hall view.jpg

[/img]

Guess what? The spires in the above photo have a shape (to my mind) more resembling the clock tower than the newer 1869 church spires. Is it possible a second tower in the busy corner photo was doctored out for artistic balance? Or was there indeed only one clock tower. Or was the photo actually taken in Rochester? [/quote]
I feel confident that the picture is in Utica with the Grace Church tower and the Butterfield House in the foreground in the block between Elizabeth and Devereux. (or are you talking about something else)

[jon hynes]

Here's a Panoramic View of Downtown Utica

[dgriffin]

Sept 22, 2009 22:48:35 GMT -5 jon hynes said:

Sept 22, 2009 21:35:21 GMT -5 @dgriffin said:

Here's a photo of the view from City Hall Tower, no date given. You can see the twin spires off in the distance, as well as only horse drawn vehicles (I think) on Genesee Street, just for a rough date.

www.windsweptpress.com/images/city hall view.jpg

[/img]

Guess what? The spires in the above photo have a shape (to my mind) more resembling the clock tower than the newer 1869 church spires. Is it possible a second tower in the busy corner photo was doctored out for artistic balance? Or was there indeed only one clock tower. Or was the photo actually taken in Rochester? [/quote]
I feel confident that the picture is in Utica with the Grace Church tower and the Butterfield House in the foreground in the block between Elizabeth and Devereux. (or are you talking about something else)[/quote]

Yes, absolutely, this is a view from city hall tower north down Genesee St. And the panorama looks like the same scene, by the placement of the vehicles.)

We were wondering about the following photo, which I think is the busy corner (so does NYPL), but Fiona is unsure. The odd tower in the following photo should belong to St. John's, but doesn't seem right.

See post 42, 43 and 49.


www.windsweptpress.com/images/busycorner old.jpg[/img]


The angle of Bleecker and Genesee as they meet is what we're using as the clue, as can also be seen in this photo from the early 50's.

[dgriffin]

Here's the reference for the photo in question, by the way.

digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=752570&imageID=G91F162_045F&total=146&num=40&word=utica%2C%20ny%20&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=49&e=w

[jon hynes]

Sept 23, 2009 7:45:58 GMT -5 @dgriffin said:

We were wondering about the following photo, which I think is the busy corner (so does NYPL), but Fiona is unsure. The odd tower in the following photo should belong to St. John's, but doesn't seem right.

www.windsweptpress.com/images/busycorner old.jpg

[/img][/quote]

O.K. it took awhile to find something to confirm my memories.



The Clock was on the South West corner of Charlotte and Bleecker streets. I seem to remember it being an Abstract Company.

[Clipper]

Catherine doesn't cross Bleecker, or was there a time in days gone by when it did. Did you possibly mean Charlotte and Bleecker?

[jon hynes]

Sept 23, 2009 18:43:38 GMT -5 Clipper said:

Catherine doesn't cross Bleecker, or was there a time in days gone by when it did. Did you possibly mean Charlotte and Bleecker?

You're correct. I quite often get them mixed up. I was going to check to see if I had the correct one but had too many windows open and then forgot.

Charlotte and Bleecker