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Post by Clipper on Oct 22, 2008 10:28:33 GMT -5
Frank, even the education department heads have "non-mandated" programs that can be cut. There are many frills in the schools that have little to do with a quality education.
Such things as bussing are issues that I have always questioned. I worked at one time for Birnie Bus. I know there was a time when Birnie bussed the kids cheaper than the school could do it themselves, but over the years, where has that gotten us? Is it still true, or has contracting the bussing and transportation simply put us at the mercy of contractors, who basically all can name the bottom line for transportation, and it will be high enough that even the LOW bidder will be more than the school could have done it for, if they had retained their own bus fleet. I would have to see the figures, but there is a reason why some schools still maintain their own fleets, and simply supplement it with contracted buses.
I have to hit on the unpopular belief that school sports is a place to be cut. I cannot condone maintaining a swimming pool at a school. (sorry swimmy, I went to WCVCS, which also had a pool) Astro turf on a high school field is simply extravagant and unnecessary. What the hell, will be next? Building climate controlled boxes for the spectators, and the school board?
I believe that you go to school to learn. If you want to play football, sign up for pop warner. If you want to swim, join the Y, and if we need a football scholarship to get to college, our priorities are skewed. Sports scholarships are ill conceived and wasteful. Too many athletes go to college STRICTLY to play sports and academics are lost in the shuffle. We end up graduating marginally qualified jocks that are lost when they get to the real world jobs because the skated through college dribbling a basketball or tossing a football.
Education is not immune to cutting funding. ACADEMICS is the secret word. Cut funding for all but academic programs and let extra curriculars fund themselves or at least supplement themselves, and we will save a ton of money.
Here in Tennessee, there are marching bands that get their musical instruments from the school, along with the lessons, but the uniforms, transportation to games and competitons and such is funded through fund raisers and band booster activity. They PAY to use district buses to travel.
Bottom line is this! When it is time to make cuts, there should be NO sacred cows! Not even education related activity. Focus on "education" and cut the fat, even in those departments. There are only "3 R's" not 300.
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Post by frankcor on Oct 22, 2008 13:28:12 GMT -5
I think the legislature should be involved to assess effectiveness, return on investment, cost/benefit ratio -- whatever you want to call it. Department heads can't decide that -- they will cut what is least important to them. The people should have a say in it.
How's this for an idea? Let the people vote on what tax increase (or decrease) is acceptable. Then the executive and legislature have to make it fit.
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Post by frankcor on Oct 22, 2008 13:38:11 GMT -5
Clipper, physical education is a mandated program as well it should be. Teaching kids life choices about fitness, wellness and diet were things we missed and it's hurt our generation.
Interscholastic sports is peanuts, if I recall. Even a district with a robust program like Rome would save less than 3% if it eliminated the entire program (like that would ever happen). I believe the benefit outweighs the cost in most cases. There are some kids who stay in school or achieve good grades only because they want to play sports. Relying on private programs like the Y would be economic discrimination of the highest form.
Most districts have painted themselves into a corner with bussing even though I believe it would be impossible for a public entity in NY State to provide the service at even close to what a private concern can provide. Mandated employee benefits cannot compete with those of the private sector and that seals the deal even before you can look into it deeper. Add to that the cost of bonding to equip a modern fleet of busses and you're out of the ballpark.
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Post by Clipper on Oct 22, 2008 15:49:32 GMT -5
Judging from the shape our youth are in, and the obesity problems, I would say that the mandated program of physical fitness is not working. Not enough of it is mandated. We had it at least 2 or 3 times a week. It was gymnastics, trampoline, basket ball, volley ball, dodge ball. If that is what a mandate is supposed to dictate, we need to have about 1 40 minute period daily to make some of these little fat assed video game freaks sweat a little. Maybe we should not serve pizza in the cafeteria everyday either.
Bussing is also out of control. I watched a school bus pull out of an elementary school here one day, go about 100 yards and drop off kids. What the hell, Mommy can't get off her lazy ass and walk the kids home from school instead of waiting for them by the mailbox in her housecoat?
Maybe if we "mandated" parents to take parenthood classes and take care of their own damn kids, the schools would not have to pay to babysit, counsel, and discipline the little turds. Teachers could teach, and counselors could go back to helping kids pick a college, instead of arranging for psychologist appointments and family counseling or drug rehabs.
I am sorry Frank. I am all for kids getting their basic education at taxpayer expense. If I have to live a "no frills life" to pay my taxes, these kids need to get a basic "no frills" education, unless their parents want to pay for additional frills from their pocket.
You say sports programs aren't a major factor in budgets. Well with diesel fuel at over 4 bucks a gallon, a trip from Rome to Chittenango or Syracuse with a couple of buses IS a major expense. Given all the teams that travel, sports IS an expense that could be cut back. Say play only teams that are within 20 miles or something.
You are in favor of cutting all non-mandated programs at the county level, so lets include cutting non-mandated programs in the school districts. What better way for a kid to learn economics than to realize at an early age that extravagance and financial mismanagement has to be paid for with sacrifices at some point down the road.
I am not against education, but it has to be looked at along with all the rest of the expenses that bring tax increases. We at some point have to look at it with the same eyes we are looking through when we propose cuts to the sheriff's department. School budgets should be maintained, without tax increases, by tightening belts and suffering a little, like any other entity financed by the taxpayer. Everyone is a sucker for the kids, and the rhetoric that we are not supporting our children's education is bullshit. Kids can get a fine education much cheaper than what most districts spend presently.
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Post by dgriffin on Oct 22, 2008 23:26:05 GMT -5
Teaching kids life choices about fitness, wellness and diet were things we missed and it's hurt our generation. Sorry I missed this earlier, I was out buying donuts. You're right Frank. My kids don't smoke, because of what they learned in school and the healthy attitudes inculcated in them. That's amazing when you consider that they lived with me, who only quit 5 years ago. And they've watched their diet and gotten more exercise than I ever did, on a regular basis. There are lots of reasons, sure, but I've always been appreciative to the schools for their large part in that process. |
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Post by tanouryjr on Oct 22, 2008 23:41:08 GMT -5
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Post by Swimmy on Oct 23, 2008 6:26:46 GMT -5
picente clearly just does not understand how government is supposed to work. And he most certainly does NOT understand the economic crisis plaguing New York State, as a whole. The governor has vetoed more worthy bills because of the ridiculous cost to the state and stated that he cannot sit back and allow these bills to become law in the economic crisis NYS is in. He has urged all those bill sponsors to work on the bill and craft it in such a way that will not be so expensive to New Yorkers.
We are in an economic recession. Oneida County citizens are already taxed beyond belief. Many of them will NOT see pay raises. Many of them are already paid LESS than their public sector counterparts -- there is something very un-democratic about that! How are people supposed to stay in Utica working two jobs just to make 30k a year and be expected to pay their tax bills? It is irresponsible of picente to even suggest a 1% increase. As has been stated here by more experienced people who have handled their own budgets, when the money isn't there, they cut back and learn to do more with less. That is the golden rule in the private sector, that should the rule in the public sector.
When you take a job in government, you do so because of your desire to serve the public for the common good, not to become a rich fat bastard at the peon taxpayers' expense. Those are the type of people picente should be hiring, who know the pay is not great, but care so much about their job they do it anyway. It is wholly irresponsible for him to suggest raises for PUBLIC SERVANTS, especially in this economic crisis.
I will agree with him that donna and the disgrace do not know a thing about responsible and investigative reporting. They never have and never will. Until enough band together and decide to invest in their own newspaper media, we're stuck with the disgrace and all its wonder (even though that last part was sarcastic, my stomach still turned just thinking about it).
But seriously, it is time to stop relying on taxpayers to cover costs of failed government practices. They wonder why there is a brain drain and not lucrative jobs. YOU TAXED THEM ALL AWAY!
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Post by Swimmy on Oct 23, 2008 6:38:14 GMT -5
Clipper,
You won't get an argument from me about exorbitant waste on athletic luxuries. If you don't have a swim team and there is no support for a pool, by all means cut that expense out. I never saw the need for a high school team to have a state-of-the-art stadium and field that rivals some of the top college teams in the country. New Hartford regularly revamps its stadium and the field and track.
I disagree that high school sports should be cut out altogether. There are plenty of life lessons and bonds of friendship to be lost. It also is a healthy and positive alternative to hanging out behind the school doing drugs and committing crimes.
But you're right, high school sports have advanced to that of college sports in that it's all about winning. It was not like that for me in high school, at least not on the swim team. Our coach would not let us compete in swim meets if our individual averages fell below 85. If you had a lower gpa than that, our coach would seek to have you in tutoring and other academic programs to help you, if you showed you were doing all the right things and working hard but still had a gpa below 85, then he would let you compete because you're putting forth the proper effort. I remember our coach benched one of our top sprinters because he skipped practice to go to a hockey game and took an attitude with one of his teachers for not doing his homework and blamed it on swim practice. Despite rich daddy's attempt to "persuade" our coach to change his mind, my coach stood firm. Afterward, our coach told us that he does not care if we lose the next meet; he's not there to win, but to teach us the importance of hard work and dedication, not only to ourselves, but to our team.
That doesn't seem to happen in schools anymore. Too often we'll read how a star athlete is arrested for larceny and still starts the game that Friday because the team needs the win. It's a disgrace to true athletes and coaches who know what is more important. High school sports need to return to the mantra of my former swim coach. Academics should come first in high school. College is different.
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Post by frankcor on Oct 23, 2008 12:04:49 GMT -5
Clipper, even at $4/gallon, diesel fuel for interscholastic athletic travel is a tiny part of the budget and provides a benefit greater than its cost. It's all a matter of priority. To me, education is more important than enforcement of traffic laws. I don't apologize for that. I doubt many disagree with me.
Yo, Tony Picente. What part of "no more" don't you understand? We can't afford your budget. Cut it, do you hear? Cut it.
And why the obsfucation? If the tax rate increase will not be 8.9% why haven't you told us what it will be? The OD reports what you tell them. It's not their fault your information is incomplete. Don't play cutsie with "it's only $50 a year to the average homeowner." It's that very incrementalist mantra that has put this county and state in the situation we are in.
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Post by countrygal on Oct 23, 2008 12:58:38 GMT -5
As a person who works in Oneida County's number one industry (dairy farming if you didn't know) it's getting tougher and tougher to stay here. Why?? TAXES! Maybe these politicians would like to get their dairy products from another state so it's not that fresh. Or better yet....China! If there is a surplus of money to use so that taxes aren't raised, you better use it. Save it for a rainy day?.....well it's POURING people!
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Post by Clipper on Oct 23, 2008 13:07:54 GMT -5
Agreed Frank that the diesel spent on sports trips is a small piece of the bigger pie, but it is the small pieces that have accumulated over the years and grew into a serious dollar amount when added to all the other little "small items". Knowing your passion for the schools, I certainly believe you would rather cut there, than in some other more important area.
I don't share ALL of that passion for schools and teachers. WE spend millions of dollars educating kids, and unfortunately fewer and fewer of them each year place any value on that education, and more and more parents seem to think that is YOUR responsibility and MINE to babysit for the ill raised little miscreants.
I hate to argue with ya, but we have to agree to disagree once in a while. I guess I am a little tighter with a buck than you are, and need protection more than education at this raggedy old age, haha.
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Post by Swimmy on Oct 23, 2008 13:57:13 GMT -5
As a person who works in Oneida County's number one industry (dairy farming if you didn't know) Seriously?! I thought it was county government and local politics. lol |
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Post by frankcor on Oct 23, 2008 15:06:54 GMT -5
Swimmy, you beat me to the punch (line).
Clipper, it's your perogative to be wrong. But tell me, what is more important than educating the next generation?
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Post by dgriffin on Oct 23, 2008 22:22:02 GMT -5
But tell me, what is more important than educating the next generation? Providing them a decent home, part of which is Mom and Dad being able to pay their taxes. Many seem to have erroneously concluded that we can give kids the education they need by digging deeper into our pockets. T'ain't so. Many of us were well educated for a fraction of the amounts spent by today's school systems. I don't feel I need to provide a fantastic gym or swimming pool to "educate" our children. The school system shouldn't be the largest employer in town, nor the local or county government. This all reminds me of some of Howard Zinn's theories of 'bait and switch" people control. (Yes, I've read Zinn and I'm not a liberal.) While we're all arguing the value of the services provided by government and schools, we're in reality being hornswoggled by them to provide jobs and more. |
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Post by Clipper on Oct 23, 2008 22:23:51 GMT -5
We WERE talking about county government and politics until someone suggested cutting some of the money spent on schools and education. I guess I got sidetracked because here in Tennessee, there are city schools and county schools. No central districts and such. All the schools outside the city belong to the county and are funded with county tax monies and are part of the county budget. I forget that up there ya pay a separate school tax. By the way, how does about $850 bucks a year total property and county taxes sound, haha. We had a house comparable, worth about $110K or so up there and paid over $3000.
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