Picente threatens Veto if we lower taxes

[Swimmy]

As I said, we have to agree to disagree.

And it's not about "equating some Piece of Paper with real Experience and Passion." It's about comparing same levels of education in similar fields. An engineer with a BS starts out at roughly 45-50k. A RN (two years post high school work) starts out with roughly the same.

If teaching were as easy as you think it is, there would be more teachers. If you spent week as a teacher, you'd realize the inaccuracy of your implications.

[dgriffin]

As is true with many jobs paid for by the public, there are benefits that most of us are not aware of. Most teachers will reach the top of the pay scale in ten years, faster than in many industries. An acquaintance and long time teacher in a local school system will be making a salary of SIX digits this year. He's a teacher, not an administrator. Teachers also negotiate new contracts with regular uplifts to the scale at percentage rates higher than many workers in the private sector. Retirement pensions can be extremely generous. A typical amount for a person who taught 30 years might be 75% of the their last paycheck as well as lifetime medical benefits (now paid for in part by teachers.) Some teachers can cheaply add their military time to their pensions. I know a teacher couple who retired 8 years ago with a combined pension of $133,000, plus Social Security. For thirty years he taught primary grade children to play the triangle and his wife taught high school girls to bake brownies. When you add up all the years they were paid, the "burden" to house and heat them at work, insurance, etc., you could probably have sent 1,000 deserving children to music school or pastry chef training.

I don't have a h**d-on against teachers. I was one for a short time, and in fact I enjoy a small teacher's pension, as well as a medical plan that's a pretty good deal.
What I DO mind are many of their attitudes. The quote above from the woman with whom I spoke was not an isolated expression. She is really proud of costing us a lot of money and couldn't care less how the price of education affects homeowners.

Yes, I know that teaching is a tough job, and I know that most teachers put more than their contracted hours and days into the job. But many of the teachers I met and worked with are quite frankly spoiled children. After years of dealing with nine year olds, many have begun to act like them. Some have led extremely sheltered lives, since being raised in a middle class home, sent away to college and finally spending 30 years in a second grade classroom.

The way I think things should work (if we don't have trumpets here, we could use triangles for a meager Ta-Da) is for the community to put an affordable value on the education of their children and offer that amount of money. Build the building, hire the administrators and then offer the teachers what we can afford. Teachers can take or leave it. Would we get substandard education or bozo teachers? I really don't think so. We would get what we used to get. Men and women who were primarily interested in the service of educating children in somewhat (but not total) disregard to their wallets.

I find it ironic that folks are pulling their children out of public schools for reasons of safety and substandard instruction, and in most cases paying lots of money to send their kids to private schools ... both religious and non-religious ... where the teachers often accomplish miracles and often are paid much less than their colleagues down the road in the public school the students came from.

[Swimmy]

I've heard the opposite: private school teachers make much more than their public counterparts. The real price is in administration. Administrators double dipping, receiving a pension from their retired position and then a lucrative salary at another school. The attorney general is investigating this in many downstate schools. Proctor, I think has 5 assistant principals. Is it really necessary? In Upstate New York, the highest any of them, I'm going on memory so if someone has more accurate figures, please correct me, is still only 5 figures. Cut some of the administrative positions and you'll see more savings.

I agree that the newer generation of teachers are spoiled and not as concerned with educating kids. But my mother's generation of teachers is an entirely different story.

You also have to take into account that the entire atmosphere has changed in schools. Teachers no longer have the disciplinary control over their classrooms as in the past. Parents are quick to sue the school for something their child did and blame it on a teacher for being too harsh. If a student earns an F, he only has to make a baseless accusation of sexual abuse and the teacher's career is ruined, even if ultimately exonerated of the allegations.

[dgriffin]

Oct 21, 2008 21:00:45 GMT -5 Swimmy said:

You also have to take into account that the entire atmosphere has changed in schools. Teachers no longer have the disciplinary control over their classrooms as in the past. Parents are quick to sue the school for something their child did and blame it on a teacher for being too harsh. If a student earns an F, he only has to make a baseless accusation of sexual abuse and the teacher's career is ruined, even if ultimately exonerated of the allegations.

That is all very true, Swimmy, and you have correctly laid the blame squarely where it belongs, on the administrators. When I was teaching, discipline was impossible exactly because the administration would not back up the teachers and parents showed up for Parent/Teacher meetings with their attorneys. When things got bad enough, the BOE would start micromanaging the schools, some board members even showing up to give teachers tips on teaching and handling children! (Not, thank God, where I taught, but that did happen locally where I live.)

For me, this is the bottom line: teacher salaries are way out of whack. (And certainly administrators, too.)

There is indeed a value to an education and the "piece of paper." At our local high school, the library was run by two woman. They each had essentially the same duties and did the same work. One was a certified librarian and paid according to the teachers contract. Eight years ago she made $83,000 a year for nine months. Her co-worker had a year or two of college, but was an aid, worked 11 months and was paid $13,000 a year. Something is wrong here.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to increase their income. It's a natural inclination that has driven America to economic success. But there comes a time when reality has to set in. We've reached a point where we can no longer afford primary and secondary education as we have always known it. Teachers (and administrators) have to get more realistic. (I won't get started on their union in NY State (NYSUT), but that outfit often reminded me of a protection racket.)

By the way, don't confuse charter schools (where teachers are paid as much as public school teachers), with private schools where teachers are often paid less, often much less.

[Swimmy]

In your scenario about the librarians, that's similar in any field outside the public sector. Some positions just cannot advance without a certain level of education. People with only a high school education are paid much less than those with college degrees, who in turn are paid less than those with Master's or doctoral degrees.

I'm not confusing charter school with private schools, I'm referring to boarding schools and prep schools, both private.

You won't get any argument from me about ridiculously expensive secondary schools. I am furious about that situation, and Arcuri has done nothing in that campaign promise of his.

[dgriffin]

OK, you didn't ask, but forgetting the schools for a moment and following the thread of public spending, here's an example of what happened to the Volunteer Fire Department of which I was president 30 years ago. Back then the district comprised 430 homes. We had one pumper, one tanker and turnout gear. Thirty years later they have an additional 45 homes, but now 2 pumpers, 2 tankers, a rescue truck, an equipment truck, a medical/coffee van, a Jump Jeep, an SUV all decked out in red and miscellaneous flashing lights and sounds, given to the fire chief for his exclusive full time use ... his gas paid for, even on vacation ... and all of this housed in a brand new huge fire house that rents out to weddings as a sideline and rivals the Parthenon in architectural splendor.
The fire taxes have risen steeply, to make an understatement.

[dgriffin]

Forgot to add that in the district in which I now live, the housing almost doubled, but the fire department has added only a rescue truck (partly from a grant because of our mountain trails) and a subsidy for the Chief's private truck.

[Ralph]

But where does this lead us in relation to the County taxes going up?

The County keeps sucking its taxpaying residents dry, denying folks that need real help the help they need, and by the same token giving the bloodsuckers that know how to play the system a full cartload of groceries every month and medical care out the backside.

They in turn hire friends relatives and anyone that can relate to contributing to the elected officials being in office, at outrageous salaries w/bennies.

Something really wrong somewhere.........has been for years.

[dgriffin]

Salary Survey Report for Industry: Education, Private K-12 School

Updated, 2008. Doesn't give demographics of sample of almost 6,000 respondents. E.g., could be skewed to Catholic schools, which are known to pay below the norm.

www.payscale.com/research/US/Industry=Education,_Private_K-12_School/Salary

[dgriffin]

Oct 21, 2008 21:44:03 GMT -5 Ralph said:

But where does this lead us in relation to the County taxes going up?.

Only God knows. Probably South Carolina. A friend moved to Dillon, S.C. two years ago. Granted, his home is in cotton country and it's not Vail, Colorado.
But he visited his local Dept. of Motor Vehicle office, a single room with about 15 desks in it and somewhat busy clerks. No waiting in line to have his registration done. Pick a worker with an empty chair next to her desk. He mentioned to her he was on his way to the tax office next (another large room at the other end of the dilapidated building) to to get a rundown on next year's taxes. "Well," she said, "county taxes have gone up."
"What about school taxes?" he asked.
"What are they?" she wanted to know.

[Ralph]

[tanouryjr]

I'm glad this created a lot of discussion. It's nice to hear what you all think about this. I can't stand hearing the same tired excuses for government's failure from the 10th floor. Thank you all so much for openly giving your opinions.

For those locally, we have budget hearings with Ways & Means every Tuesday-Thursday at 4 pm right in the Legislative Chambers on the 10th floor. It's open to the public but only department heads and the media usually go. Your welcome to attend and see what goes on. You can even sit at my desk with me and go over the budget and suggest questions. Sound like fun? lol

[frankcor]

Dave, tell the truth. Wasn't your inarticulate statement to the young teacher just a little bit intentional?

How did this state allow itself to get to the point where we cannot afford our highest-priority (education) any longer?

The solution seems simple -- Picente (or the governor) should call upon all his department heads to identify the least effective (non-mandated) programs they administer. When they identify them, direct that the programs be terminated.

[Clipper]

Basically when the federal government made cuts to OUR budgets as managers, it was a case of them telling us that our budget would be cut by a certain percentage. It was up to us to determine where we wanted to spend the remaining money and where we needed to make the cuts. It was somewhat more involved than that, but that is basically how it worked.

It was not a case of them telling us to SEE what we could save. It was a case of being TOLD what we WOULD save, and then it was up to us to figure out the where and how. It worked, and it was done on more than one occasion, and on all those occasions, we as managers were able to find the means to continue to operate our departments, efficiently but with less funding.

Pay raises are not necessarily the crux of the problem. People DO deserve incremental raises to meet increased costs of living. Raises of inordinate magnitude are a problem. Equipment costs are necessary, but in some cases have to be put off or delayed.

EVERY department manager could, and would find the means to cut their budget, if it were simply mandated that they operate on a certain amount of money, and had to find the means to do so. If it meant laying off someone and doing more work with less people, so be it. If they had to use the old gray file cabinets for another year instead of buying the ones that match the desks and chairs the they didn't need to buy to begin with, so be it. If they do without carpeting the office, all I can say is vacuum cleaners are more expensive than a mop and a broom, so they need to walk on hard tile instead of expensive carpeting.

Everyone, and apparently ESPECIALLY the county executive, needs to be mandated how much money they can spend WITHOUT raising taxes, and then left to their own means to implement the cuts to their own departmental budget. I wonder where Picente would cut. I wonder if his lap dog assistant might be looking for work or at least working cheaper and harder.

Everyone is appalled at the overtime situation with the secretary at the sheriff's department. Well, maybe the position should not be exempt. Maybe the woman should be paid less, but be paid for her overtime when she is forced by workload to work it. It is not her fault that the workload is bigger than one person can accomplish in a 40 hour week. NOBODY should have to work beyond normal hours without compensation. EXEMPT is a word that I never agreed with when it comes to pay issues.

Bottom line is this. If the county is FORCED to live without a tax increase, the county and it's department heads WILL find a way, and it won't necessarily need to have a major impact on you the taxpayer.

[dgriffin]

Oct 22, 2008 7:41:31 GMT -5 frankcor said:

Dave, tell the truth. Wasn't your inarticulate statement to the young teacher just a little bit intentional?
Hahaha!
How did this state allow itself to get to the point where we cannot afford our highest-priority (education) any longer?

The solution seems simple -- Picente (or the governor) should call upon all his department heads to identify the least effective (non-mandated) programs they administer. When they identify them, direct that the programs be terminated.

Well, you're right, Frank, because we might only be mildly grumbling about education expenses if taxes weren't so high. And that's how they got so high, I suppose. Not many of us were looking when the price was reasonable.

... call upon all his department heads to identify the least effective (non-mandated) programs they administer ....

As Clipper noted, cut a certain percentage from the budget with an axe and department heads will do that with some immunity.