Boy, 13, charged with murder in shooting death of

[concerned]

There is something about this that doesn't sit right to me. That kids eyes could write volumes. I almost fell over when one person from that village sad they felt save now because someone was caught............SOMEONE

Now they are playing the mental illnes card. Crap

This kid was forced to kill his father by his own father or mother. And the mother goes to legal aid fore a lawyer that could destroy his life forever. He should never been sent to the youth detention center..........imagine what he is going through..............even an adult that is street smart would have an easier time there.

[Clipper]

Legal aid doesn't necessarily mean doom concerned. Many legal aid lawyers are as dedicated as any other attorney, and there is always a chance that someone will step forward and defend this kid pro bono. Legal aid is overwhelmed with the run of the mill drug cases and such, but there are some very smart and experienced lawyers that actually feel that they are performing a noble service by working in legal aid. Kudos to those that serve with that level of dedication.

I also have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach, that this kid may be tossed away by his mother, and the system. Unfortunately, mom's word will be taken at face value as fact, and any counseling or treatment for any emotional problems will be defined as mental illness. Mom and Dad both are responsible for this kid's upbringing, and his emotional development. Someone failed somewhere, and I don't think it was the kid. Someone brought about the killing by this young man, IF he did it at all.

NO he cannot be turned loose on society at this point, and he does need to be tried as an adult IF HE DID IT! If he has an emotional problem, he should be treated, and confined to a mental facility, not jail or detention. I have a sick feeling in my tummy with this kid sitting in detention. He should be in a locked psychiatric facility and getting emotional support and evaluation as we speak. This boy is living in terror and alone, 90 miles from home, and everyone seems willing to assume his guilt and condemn him. I would sooner condemn the mother, father, and father's girlfriend. We have not heard the true story yet, and I am hoping that it will come out that this boy either didn't do it, or was driven to it by abuse of some sort. Kids don't simply shoot their father in the head with a shotgun because they are pissed off at them over something trivial.

[concerned]

your words are comforting. when stuff like this happens I just get so depressed.

[jrcummings]

You know this is BS! When a minority commits a crime your sentiment is totally different and I think that's garbage. A 13 year old is a 13 year old and if they commit murder, then they should be punished the same accross the board. My cousin was arrested for assaulting a police officer and you should go back and read what you all where writing about that situation. Why is it that when a minority does the same thing as a white person it automatically becomes heinous. This 13 year old kids doesn't deserve mercy, or he doesn't deserve to be felt sorry for, he deserves exactly what you all would say he deserved if he was a minority.

[Swimmy]

I highly resent that comment, jrcummings! Don't go making race an issue where it is not an issue.

Also, Legal Aid does not represent criminals. In fact, if they're incarcerated, federal regulations prohibits Legal Aid from representing their clients.

You would have to hope for the public defender's office to be assigned or someone from the assigned counsel list.

[Clipper]

Well JC, I certainly remember the thread about your cousin's arrest. It certainly turned into a long and heated argument between you and I, and that discussion resulted in both of us unraveling our misconceptions of each other's motives and we became friends.

This is yet another inflammatory thread where race again raises it's ugly head, and rightfully so. I see your point completely, and I am ashamed to admit as a white man, that you are right.

I think you know my positions on racial issues. I look upon my black friends as equals. I also look at their plight with sympathy, but not in a condescending way. Blacks have made many gains over the years, especially since the civil rights act was passed, but we owe them SO MUCH MORE as a people, and whites need to come much farther in making the playing field level for all races.

I know I will get blasted for my opinions on racial issues once more, but I am used to it. I think that there are blacks that have taken advantage of race as an excuse to play the role of the disadvantaged and abused, but there are also black men that have worked hard to attain status and have been treaded down and stifled in attempts to succeed on a color free playing field.

When the young lad in Clinton killed his grandfather, the same sympathetic attitude was expressed.

Race as a divisive issue is not going away in our lifetimes, as much as we would like to see it do so. White people have fostered the divisive environment for years, but now people like Al Sharpton, Louis Farahkan, and Reverend Wright, fuel the fires and cause negative feelings in those that listen to their rhetoric. Until both sides throw down the negative and pick up the positive, working for change is impossible.

Just continue to speak out when necessary, and speaking out may bring some folks back to the reality of the phenomenon. Racism doesn't need to divide us as friends, even though no matter how hard we try, race still divides people way deep in the minds of America.

I am personally grateful for what you are doing as a soldier fighting for our country. I have learned much from reading your opinions about the war in Iraq. I have also learned much from our exchanges and emails and I KNOW you are not racist, just defensive of your own race when justified.

While an unpopular stance to take, I wonder if the answer in God's master plan is for mixed marriage and mixed race children to become a majority, and then with color no longer an issue, we can all live as equals. Jduges, suggested that theory a long time ago on the OD forums, and it certainly is conceivable that it would cure all our ills, but it would take a couple of generations to accomplish.

Good to see you post again. I wish you had time to participate more often. God Bless and stay safe my friend.

[gski]

I have to agree with you on this one. I'm feed up with the "race" issues, especially when it comes to crime. A crime is a crime is a crime. If you're found guilty then you are guilty. I don't care if someone is black, white or green.

The issue that I do have is simply this and folks can ponder or answer me this. When was the last time someone said, "I'm being discriminated against", and they were white? Why continue to play the race card at all?

Race or color as far as I'm concerned don't determine guilt and shouldn't be an issue.

Unfortunately there are minority leaders whose claim to fame and fortune is done by only fanning the "hate" and "racism" flames.

I grew up in a rural school system where it didn't matter what color someone was, why should it? Some of my best friends were black, but to the majority of us it was so what, why should that matter. For those that it did, they were the minority and when they showed their true colors people didn't like it and we told them so.

This was back in 1980, look how much we've changed huh....

So much for one of my first posts....
g

[Swimmy]

You need to look at the facts of each case. I never pay attention to race, just the surrounding circumstances to each crime.

A gangster, irrespective of race, who kills an innocent person for drug money or merely because that victim crossed an invisible boundary she was unaware of should be hanged.

In the Clinton situation, it was sad because the murderer suffered from a mental illness and his family waited too long to give him the medical attention he desperately needed. That does not belittle or trivialize the simple fact that the clinton kid killed his grandfather. It just means that the circumstances are sad because it could have been averted if the family was more assertive in requiring the kid to receive medical attention. If he was black, I'd be saying the same thing.

I don't know about this 13 year old killing his father. I have not followed this story and do not recall the facts of his case. I do know that I had pretty harsh words for the bastard who let his mother die in her own fecal matter. Guess what, he is white! There goes your theory!

I'm sick and tired of everyone ignoring facts making it an issue of race merely because they themselves are infuriated about their own experiences and misguidingly transpose those experiences into general over broad and sweeping generalizations that white people are called racist for when they make those same generalizations!

I'm not racist, by any stretch of the imagination. I refuse to be lobbed into a group or category of people merely because I'm white.

I don't give a shit about my skin color or anyone else's; why should you?! It has no bearing on who you are as a person.

[Swimmy]

gski, welcome to clipper's busy corner! I look forward to reading your posts. Enjoy and come here often.

[Clipper]

Sorry swimmy. I think that JRCummings was making a general observation, and well founded at that. Take a look at the case of the woman in W Utica that was arrested with a shotgun and knives in her stroller. She was black. She also was mentally ill and admitted to being off of her medications. (possibly because she could not afford the copays). She was villified in the OD, and on this forum too, even though all she did was THREATEN harm to someone.

On the other side of the coin is the woman that stabbed her husband to death, while drunk, walking home from the bar. Everyone felt sorry for her, and made excuses because she had been abused. She was white. Do ya see the difference? I damn sure do.

I am ashamed to subconsciously subscribe to that sort of sympathy for people while not subscribing to it equally for all.

The truth of the matter is, justice should be served, white, black, or green, and murder is murder, whether by a mentally ill person or someone completely in possession of their faculties. Our thoughts and concerns should be for that justice to be served equally, no matter the color of one's skin, with sympathy where warranted without regard to race or color either.

Swimmy. I think you jump to a conclusion. I have corresponded with JR for a long time, and he is not a racist, and wouldn't play the race card unjustifiably. He is simply making and observation, and one that I find founded in fact. He points no fingers at any one of our members in particular, and simply points out a flaw in our points of view. His view is valuable, because he looks at it from the other side of the coin, as a black man, and a distinguished member of our armed forces.

I think that any subtlety in his post exploded in a flash and put some of us on the defensive. These are the very issues that we need to address to become a nation of unity and diversity, where ALL men are equal. We have been since Abe Lincoln, professing that fact to be true, but it is far from a reality, if you are black and living in this "free country."

Just an opinion from the "old color blind Clipper." It was a shocking realization for me, whom I consider to be very much against racism, and consider prejudice disgusting, to discover that I had to admit to holding some of the biased opinions that JR points out when posting to the referenced thread.

[dgriffin]

A woman carrying a shotgun in a baby carriage is more laughable (unless she's pointing the gun at you) than a drunk murdering her husband. I don't remember what color either of them was, but by the context of Clipper's reply, I think the shotgunner was black.

And I don't mind admitting that a 13 year old white kid in trouble has my sympathy more than a black kid, not that he should. It's just as natural as when we pick up the paper and wonder how many in a plane crash in Greece were Americans. We identify more with our own kind and that's been part of natural selection for the last 500 million years. Does it spawn prejudice? Of course it does. And we need to each be personally responsible enough to recognize this and make sure feelings don't color our decisions in the market place, the neighborhood and the voting booth.
That said, we all need to shout down demagogues like Sharpton and Wright, as well as white supremacists and hate-filled idiots like Bill White and Curtis Maynard.

Swimmy said, "I don't give a shit about my skin color or anyone else's; why should you?! It has no bearing on who you are as a person." I agree, but I recognize my propensity for making assumptions that are often unfair.

Clipper said, "I am ashamed to subconsciously subscribe to that sort of sympathy for people while not subscribing to it equally for all." I am not ashamed of my subconscious; I am ashamed of my actions, when they are unfair.

Clipper also said, "Blacks have made many gains over the years ... but we owe them SO MUCH MORE as a people, and whites need to come much farther in making the playing field level for all races." I did agree with that at one time, but no longer. One can certainly make the case that civil rights "reparation" has been meager since it began ... although I do believe blacks have made many advances ... but I remain unconvinced that we as a people "owe" minorities anything at this point in our history. If the playing field is not level enough by now, it's not my fault.
But if JR disagrees with me, he is certainly able to argue the point. Something tells me he and I might agree on more than we would disagree.

[Swimmy]

I actually sympathize with the woman carrying a gun. I would have defended her and argued that by charging her with a crime it was a direct violation on her second amendment rights. I really feel sorry that the government just trampled on her rights to carry a gun.

I kept quiet after reading some of the posts on here and on the disgrace pages. But if we're going to get into a white criminals receive more sympathy than black criminals, I'll be honest and tell you what I think.

As for the drunk couple, I don't recall exactly what I said. I seem to recall that both committed domestic violence on each other. In that instance they're both idiots and deserve what they get.

In other instances, I am more likely to be more sympathetic toward victims of domestic violence who are accused of murder or assault against their abusers.

But again, I look at the facts and circumstances, never the skin color.

As for the other issue, there, I think we just need to stop feeding Sharpton's et al's fire. Ignore their words and teach our youth that hate gets us no where and we need to learn to understand and accept that each of us is unique and different and most importantly EQUAL. Remember, this is still a free country and idiots like Bill White and Sharpton are entitled to their opinions. We just don't have to listen to them or give them any credence. Instead, ignore them and preach understanding and acceptance (?). I choose the word acceptance over tolerance because I was sold on someone's argument about tolerance and the negative impacts. But we need to teach everyone that being different isn't bad, it's good, it's fun, it's normal!

[Ralph]

What amazes me most about this incident is the way it has disappeared for the moment.

I said it before in the beginning of this thread, he may look innocent, but you have to let the cards play out..........Ted Bundy looked innocent as well.

As far as race goes, or religion, et al, I have been around long enough to know it doesn't make any difference as to whom may predisposed to commit a particular act.

Anyone who commits such an act sure does have a mental problem of some sorts, whether it be physiological or caused by their socio-economic background, but they DO have a problem.


But I will agree with JR on one point.

You can bet your butt that if this had been a black kid from "da hood", they would have tried, convicted and crucified him already.

[Clipper]

As far a level playing field and whites owing blacks, we may have made equal opportunity in employment a law, but we still do not hire accordingly. I have seen prejudice in hiring first hand. I have watched government employees "work around" issues of race to avoid hiring or to avoid promoting a person of black or hispanic heritage. Did I say something? Damn right I did, but it did no good, because they laid our their reasons NOT to hire the person, before they began interviewing and had their asses covered.

Blacks have an equal right to APPLY for work, but it is still a problem for them to get hired. They may get an interview, but that doesn't mean that they will get an equal shot at the job.

We don't owe the lazy asses and bums a chance, but we owe enterprising and ambitious young people of race a break. There is still toooo much emphasis placed on color and stereotypes when hiring.

We ALL know where I stand on issues of race, so I will not argue heatedly with anyone on here. We are all friends and are entitled to opinion, as long as the opinion does not become racist or hateful in context.

[countrygal]

Race isn't a big issue for me. I would feel horrible for any child that committee a crime that was 13 years old. I would think " that's someone's baby that just did or is being accused of that crime". It's a truly terrible thing, whatever race they are. I will agree that some people do jump to convict someone when they are African American. I hope someday that will change. I don't remember your cousin JR that was arrested for beating up an officer. I'm assuming he was African American? I wouldn't have much good to say about a white person doing that crime either.

I have a question about hiring practices. I worked at a local college. A management position was open and a search started. There was 2 very qualified white applicants and one African American applicant that wasn't as qualified. The African American was hired. He was horrible at the job. But this college didn't have many African American employees so they kept him. Now is that fair? To hire ANYONE that isn't qualified for the job is bad, but to hire someone BECAUSE of the color of their skin isn't good either. There should be a level playing field and it should go both ways. If you are a qualified African American you should get hired over a white applicant and vice versa without people being up in arms over the whole thing.

It's a messed up world, not doubt about it. The best thing I can do is teach my children the correct way and hope it continues on with my grandchildren, etc.