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Post by Swimmy on Mar 28, 2013 22:11:58 GMT -5
BZ, the "big deal" is this. HANDGUNS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BE REGISTERED EITHER! the permit process is invasive enough, but the number of handguns and the serial numbers should not be required to be registered to the permit. If you are approved for a permit it should make no difference to, or be any business of government to track whether you own 1 gun or 10.  Your first statement confuses me. How long has it been since one is required to register a hand gun? If that has been the requirement that has been abide by then I don't understand why all of a sudden it's such a big deal to register ones long guns. That was my question. Besides, hasn't this procedure been very instrumental in solving crimes and why would anyone object to that? Clip, actually having just gone through the pistol permit procedure I didn't find anything while doing that to be invasive. There was nothing on that pistol permit application that I would be ashamed of or hesitate to answer. Quite honestly, I thought it was a pretty simple procedure for one to obtain a pistol permit.  The problem, BZ is that the issue of how invasive the government can be before you're allowed to exercise your constitutional right has never been challenged. The left was content with the courts making up laws. The right, until 2008, never had much gumption to challenge most of these regulations. And until 2012, the right never thought much about many of the regulations and obstacles one has to jump through just to exercise their constitutional right! It's easier to buy a car, which is responsible for triple the number of deaths in this country, and driving is a PRIVILEGE. Also, the gun registration has not been very instrumental in preventing or solving any crimes. Most illegal firearms are purchased illegally, and the stolen ones have the serial numbers scratched off. So trying to trace it back to someone who legally purchased it is near impossible. The ATFE has employed a "tracing" method, but it is arduous and not easy to accomplish, regardless how much funding is involved. You may not have thought the process to obtain your pistol permit was too involved. But in order to obtain that permit, you had to fill out an application, obtain 4, or more depending on the county, character references, undergo a state and federal background check, be finger printed, and convince a judge why you should have a hand gun. And that is for a constitutional right that is IN the constitution. Yet, if those requirements were imposed on women prior to their having an abortion, all hell would break lose about an assault on women's reproductive rights. And for a privilege, such as driving, you need only pass one short written exam and one short driving exam. No background checks, no finger prints, no character references. Why is that? Don't tell me it is because guns kill people. The statistics heavily contradict that notion. In fact, you are more likely to be run over by a drunk driver, stabbed, bludgeoned with a blunt object, and raped to death, than you are to die from a gun. Is it because guns are dangerous? They're statistically LESS dangerous than driving 4 tons of steel at 30 mph, sober. Because those who have never learned anything about firearm usage and fall for cnn's and obama's scare tactics are afraid of them? I'm more afraid of being stabbed while walking down certain parts of Binghamton. Having experienced both, it is more invasive for me to obtain my pistol permit than it was for me to obtain my law license. And lawyers have the ability to really ruin lives, just ask my former boss who caused a client to serve 4 years in state prison over a pissing match with the client who made it clear she only wanted my services, not his. That's just to answer your question of why it is an issue now. And it was not all of a sudden. As I said this was a long time coming. The reason it is at the forefront of public attention is because the proposed changes in gun control would require even more invasive procedures. For example, the safe act unconstitutionally forces doctors and other healthcare providers to violate the doctor-patient privilege. If owning a firearm were a privilege, fine, but that is not the case. Having a federal database to register and keep track of every gun owner and their guns will have ZERO effect on stopping crime. But when the shit hits the fan and civil war breaks out, the feds will know who to come after first! |
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Post by bobbbiez on Mar 29, 2013 2:01:05 GMT -5
Your first statement confuses me. How long has it been since one is required to register a hand gun? If that has been the requirement that has been abide by then I don't understand why all of a sudden it's such a big deal to register ones long guns. That was my question. Besides, hasn't this procedure been very instrumental in solving crimes and why would anyone object to that? Clip, actually having just gone through the pistol permit procedure I didn't find anything while doing that to be invasive. There was nothing on that pistol permit application that I would be ashamed of or hesitate to answer. Quite honestly, I thought it was a pretty simple procedure for one to obtain a pistol permit. You may not have thought the process to obtain your pistol permit was too involved. But in order to obtain that permit, you had to fill out an application, obtain 4, or more depending on the county, character references, undergo a state and federal background check, be finger printed, and convince a judge why you should have a hand gun. And that is for a constitutional right that is IN the constitution. Yet, if those requirements were imposed on women prior to their having an abortion, all hell would break lose about an assault on women's reproductive rights. And for a privilege, such as driving, you need only pass one short written exam and one short driving exam. No background checks, no finger prints, no character references. Why is that? Swimmy, since I just went through applying for my permit my opinion is I don't feel I went through much at all to obtain that permit. I filled out the application, got my references and they did the rest. The information on the application was not invasive to me what so ever. Don't have a thing to hide. Sh*t, my friends know more about me then what I had to put on my permit application. I didn't have to do much to convince a judge for my permit. Don't know the judge or did I have to go in front of him with my reasons. I just put down exactly why I wanted a permit for on the application. Simple enough. Geez, most you mentioned is even required for quite a few jobs, especially on the state/federal level and many public service jobs and they all even take it one step further with a required drug test. I guess bottom line is if ya don't want to do the requirements for those jobs or for a pistol permit then just don't apply for them. Besides, from what I'm hearing from the public and even from some members on this forum is people want even better back ground checks now then asked for at present because guns are ending up legally in the hands of some people who do have mental problems in their history and I happen to agree with them. When I stated many crimes are solved because of the info on the guns used because of permits and having to register them is a fact. I didn't state all crimes but that doesn't take away the fact that many are. The rest you stated at present is of no concern to me because I am speaking only on the subject of pistol permits. I'm not going to compare that to whatever you want to pull out of your head. We can do that if and when those issues come up. |
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Post by JGRobinson on Mar 29, 2013 4:55:38 GMT -5
You may not have thought the process to obtain your pistol permit was too involved. But in order to obtain that permit, you had to fill out an application, obtain 4, or more depending on the county, character references, undergo a state and federal background check, be finger printed, and convince a judge why you should have a hand gun. And that is for a constitutional right that is IN the constitution. Yet, if those requirements were imposed on women prior to their having an abortion, all hell would break lose about an assault on women's reproductive rights. And for a privilege, such as driving, you need only pass one short written exam and one short driving exam. No background checks, no finger prints, no character references. Why is that? Besides, from what I'm hearing from the public and even from some members on this forum is people want even better back ground checks now then asked for at present because guns are ending up legally in the hands of some people who do have mental problems in their history and I happen to agree with them. Why would background checks help us when we dont do anything about the criminals who are breaking the current laws, In 2010 15,700 fugitives and felons were caught trying to illegally purchase firearms. The BHO's regime prosecuted 44 of them. That's a .003 prosecution rate. Don't think for a second that this is about public safety when guys like this get caught and walk. Making laws that LEO's and Prosecutors wont support is worthless. Like Illegal immigrants being treated like fish, catch and release! |
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Post by dave on Mar 29, 2013 7:40:29 GMT -5
National Rifle Association's Wayne LaPierre had this message for the mayor of New York City on Meet the Press last Sunday after hearing Blomberg will spend $12 Million of his own money on the campaign to encourage gun control. "He's going to find out this is a country of the people, by the people, and for the people. And he can't spend enough of his $27 billion dollars to try to impose his will on the American public. They don't want him in their restaurants. They don't want him in their homes. They don't want him telling them what food to eat. They sure don't want him telling them what self-defense firearms to own." www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/social_issues/jan-june13/guns_03-28.html |
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Post by Clipper on Mar 29, 2013 9:24:09 GMT -5
I certainly agree with LaPierre. Bloomberg is off the chain when it comes to invading areas that should by all rights be personal decisions to make. Of course we are living with an administration that has their nose into our healthcare decisions, and now are trying to stick their grubby little hands into our gun cabinets.
I also agree with Swimmy's reference to abortion rights. You can bet your bippy that there would be hell to pay if and when they tried to impose more regulation of the reproductive rights of a woman. Look how much fecal matter hit the oscillator when the administration decreed that religious organizations had to pay for insurance that covered birth control for their employees.
People are simply sick of the increasingly frequent invasions into our lives and privacy by an increasingly socialist leaning government at many levels. There is something disgusting and invasive about mayors telling us how big the beverage cup can be, and a first lady telling us what we can put in our children's brown bag lunch. Bloomy has gone after salt, fat, sugar and now tobacco. What's next? Gluten? Will he outlaw white bread in Manhattan? Pretty soon the NYC hot dog carts will be required to use low fat chicken franks with a lettuce wrap instead of a bun.
I don't think that the president's assault on the 2nd amendment is going to succeed. There are still enough people in this country that are going to stand up in favor of the constitutional rights and the bill of rights. It is about time for America to put the president in his place and let him know that he was elected to "represent" the people, not "rule" them. He is there to do OUR bidding, not his own. It is becoming quite obvious that at all levels of government, our representatives are serving only their personal interests, special interests (campaign donors) and party interests, instead of the genuine interests of the voters and citizens that put them in office.
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Post by bobbbiez on Mar 29, 2013 12:32:40 GMT -5
Besides, from what I'm hearing from the public and even from some members on this forum is people want even better back ground checks now then asked for at present because guns are ending up legally in the hands of some people who do have mental problems in their history and I happen to agree with them. Why would background checks help us when we dont do anything about the criminals who are breaking the current laws, In 2010 15,700 fugitives and felons were caught trying to illegally purchase firearms. The BHO's regime prosecuted 44 of them. That's a .003 prosecution rate. Don't think for a second that this is about public safety when guys like this get caught and walk. Making laws that LEO's and Prosecutors wont support is worthless. Like Illegal immigrants being treated like fish, catch and release! JR, jeez I'm positive that on this issue in other subjects posted that many here were complaining of how the mentally ill had access to guns and were blaming poor back ground checks as the reason so why when I say it is it wrong? Can't have your cake and eat it too. On the pistol application I just filled out there were questions on ones mental health history and also asking if there was anyone with mental health issues living in the home. Now does any agency check that out for each applicant? I think not and many of these shooting tragedies proved that, so I personally have no reason not to agree with better back ground checks on permit applicants. |
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Post by JGRobinson on Mar 30, 2013 4:22:17 GMT -5
Why would background checks help us when we dont do anything about the criminals who are breaking the current laws, In 2010 15,700 fugitives and felons were caught trying to illegally purchase firearms. The BHO's regime prosecuted 44 of them. That's a .003 prosecution rate. Don't think for a second that this is about public safety when guys like this get caught and walk. Making laws that LEO's and Prosecutors wont support is worthless. Like Illegal immigrants being treated like fish, catch and release! JR, jeez I'm positive that on this issue in other subjects posted that many here were complaining of how the mentally ill had access to guns and were blaming poor back ground checks as the reason so why when I say it is it wrong? Can't have your cake and eat it too. On the pistol application I just filled out there were questions on ones mental health history and also asking if there was anyone with mental health issues living in the home. Now does any agency check that out for each applicant? I think not and many of these shooting tragedies proved that, so I personally have no reason not to agree with better back ground checks on permit applicants. Ok, I will bite! They asked you if anyone in your house was crazy and you answered immediately, they took 5 months to read your response? I do agree that those that have documented dangerous mental instabilities shouldnt be allowed to purchase firearms but that isnt the discussion here, in Albany or Washington. They offer no real methods of determining that in the new laws, just mutually assured restrictions for everyone. If background checks were the fix to the problem, millions of Americans could be authorized immediately by virtue of their jobs! If your not safe to carry a shotgun, Im pretty sure the military, Police Departments and many other Employers would not let you pack an M16, Grenade Launcher or Fly an F16. Really, what can they really find out in 5 months that they cant in 5 days? I will answer that, nothing! If the Court Systems can release someone on Bond less than 24 hours after they have been arrested, you should have your permit in hand in less time than that. Investigations of our backgrounds as our Government terms to use our God Given rights is a direct infringement on our rights as American Citizens. If they must do it for our own good, they must do it As Soon As Possible. Thats not happening now, we deserve no less response from our government to buy a Pistol as we get to Enlist in the Military (With me that was less than 72 hours), Drive a School bus full of our Children (< a week) or propel a 3 ton vehicle down the road at 65 miles per hour (< than 24 hours). I am certain that feelings wont serve our grandchildren well, onl;y real facts will. While weve been arguing how to prevent less than .03% of the preventable deaths in this country, we've lost 1000 of our children to Drinking, Drugs, Gangs, Driving and other absolutely tragic and preventable losses of life. Add to that 5000 more babies that were thrown in a garbage can before they saw their mothers eyes and I think were just wasting our breaths. Don't forget our bravest Service Members losing their legs and lives every day and as sad as Sandy Hook is, it pales in comparison. Your Grandchilds life is much more likely to be ended by an OB Gyn, killed driving home from a party, hanging out with the wrong crowd or joining our Military than focusing on the teacher during classes. The only simple yet effective measures to protect them is to make sure they cant be touched while they are in the custody of our School System, Armed Guards are what our Governor uses to protect his sorry ass, why wouldnt you wish the same for our kids 8 hours a day when we cant protect them? |
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Post by bobbbiez on Mar 30, 2013 14:48:51 GMT -5
Well JR, if they can require and do thorough back ground checks on those with federal/state/public safety jobs and they do, then I can't see why they can't do the same when applying for a pistol permit. You and I know it took five months ( sometimes more) because my application just sat on someones desk until they decided to get to it. Whether it be five days or five months I know they don't check on much of anything. That has to cease and those responsible must be made to do their jobs to prevent those with documented, dangerous, and mental instabilities able to legally own guns or have them available in their homes. For me, if I felt a back ground check was infringing on my rights then I just wouldn't apply for anything that required it. That's another right available to us.
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Post by Clipper on Mar 30, 2013 16:02:09 GMT -5
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Post by JGRobinson on Mar 31, 2013 6:24:39 GMT -5
"Well JR, if they can require and do thorough back ground checks on those with federal/state/public safety jobs and they do, then I can't see why they can't do the same when applying for a pistol permit. "
BZ, one is terms for applying for a Government job (legal); the other is the equivalent to applying for your Constitutional Rights (unconstitutional). The fact that you believe your paperwork was sitting on someones desk for 5 months without action and your not pissed is odd to me. I doubt you would be very happy if that was your banks or Dr's offices policy but its OK for our Gov agencies to do when were talking about our Bill of Rights?!
There is no doubt, those with Mental Illness are pretty much on their own when it comes to help. If they dont want any, few can and will make them get it. My own sister is a perfect example of the second case. My Grandmother told us they knew she was messed up from day one but because she was also brilliant, she was untouchable by the systems that could of and should of prevented her from destroying her life and her sons.
Our house wasnt Liberal U, My mother was very strict and tried unsuccessfully for years to get her help, sis would have no part of it and she got flakier and more angry by the year. She did have her own form of chemical treatment for her "illness", came in a bottle at about 90 proof. Her poison of choice was alcohol and over the years, she flooded her brain with it so many times, she finally TBI'd herself for eternity.
Shes no longer the brilliant scholar she once was, cant tell you what she had for dinner, cant even think about working although she swears she will be writing for a newspaper again soon and has tried to kill herself a couple few times. She did get mental health forced on her a couple times after attempting suicide but they stabilized her and let her go cause she said she was OK now.
Our entire Family tried to get her committed a couple times because she will kill herself and possibly end up taking others out at the same time. The Judge wouldnt even let us in the court room because Mental Patience have more rights than those they hurt!
Why would I bring this up? Because She is a ticking time-bomb and nobody who really knows her feels safe with her living out on her own (Her phucked up boyfriend is her keeper but he lives across the road from her!). Teachers, Mental Heath and Legal Services had lots of chances to save her and her Son from herself but refused to over a 50 year period and did nothing but watch her crash and burn. When she finally gets her death wish, I pray she only kills herself and those in the community she lives in dont get dragged down with her.
Gun control doesnt do a damn thing to prevent Psyco's or Criminals from doing the things that end up causing us to bury our children, neither Nutjobs nor criminals follow laws, those of us that do are neither of those yet we are the ones being regulated.
Heres the outcome, Sis doesnt have a gun but she has a truck (although she hasnt driven in 12 years, she wouldnt hesitate to do it if given a chance), knives, swords and she can come and go as she wishes. After she got her TBI, she chainsmoked herself into Throat cancer and just had her Larynx removed a couple months ago. She is angrier than ever before cause she's a mad Zombie without a voice! Its not if, its when will she go completely off the edge and take who knows who out with her?
Do you feel safer now that she may not be able to buy an ass weapon or bullets, I sure dont! Sis isnt the only one on your street in that kind of shape, there are lots of them in every town. Momma Lanza showed poor judgement (and paid the ultimate price) when she realized she had her very own Psyco-child in house yet didnt lock down everything he could hurt himself or others with in her home but there is absolutely no reason to believe that would have stopped Junior from rampaging with something else.
This little freak was allowed to fester and grow unchecked by the systems put in place to protect us all like black mold. The societal onus is on the professionals to cull the bad fruits from the baskets before they spoil the whole harvest and they failed the 26 innocent people that Lanza killed. This isnt about gun laws, its about people who choose to commit unlawful acts either due to mental distress or are Psychopathic by nature. The only safe place for either is under constant observation.
Its ironic that Andy Coumo is so concerned about Mentally unstable individuals getting weapons, it was his dad (Super Mario) that opened up the front doors of the Psyc Centers in NY and told them all to get out. For years, many of them used to hang out on the benches in front of the old Utica Psyc Center after it was closed because they had no where to go other than the little puke section 8 apartments they threw them all into to rot and die.
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Post by Clipper on Mar 31, 2013 11:24:20 GMT -5
Mental health services have been the victim of the budget axe in many states. Here in Tennessee there are only three state hospitals left. Here in NE Tennessee they closed the hospital in Knoxville that served our area. Knoxville is 125 miles from Bristol. The hospital now serving NE Tennessee is in Chattanooga. Our nearest state operated psych hospital is either 220 miles to Chattanooga or 288 miles to Nashville.
We have a couple of privately operated psychiatric hospitals here in the area, but they each only have about 15-20 beds and they won't do "long term" residential care. Two weeks to a month is a maximum stay. Usual procedure is to evaluate, prescribe drugs and kick them loose on society again.
I have a neighbor that has a 30 something year old son that is manic depressive shizophrenic. He has been hospitalized several times, and they had to drive 2 or 3 hundred miles to visit him. Occasionally a Virginia state hospital in Marion Va, 60 miles away, will accept patients from our area. My neighbor has actually rented the son an apartment on the Virginia side of town so that he will qualify for Virginia mental health services.
He lives alone and my neighbor has to go twice a day and insure that he takes his psychotropic drugs in order for him to live some semblance of a normal life. He was once found walking 12 miles from home with 3 packs of cigarettes and a bible and talking to Jesus, headed for the hospital in Virginia to "get some more medicine."
He has never been dangerous at this point in time. We did have a young man that stabbed his dad to death several years ago, after a very cordial supper visit to his parents home. He went to his car to leave, and then knocked on the door again. When his dad opened the door, the boy stabbed him to death with a kitchen knife he had in his car, totally unprovoked. He had been declared able to manage on medication and monthly therapy sessions.
THAT is the issue that needs to be addressed. Not gun control. Care for the mentally ill has been irresponsibly tossed to the wind by politicians looking for places to cut the budget without touching more popular line items.
States need to re-open mental hospitals and give them the same priorities as they do prisons. Not only is it dangerous to turn some of the mentally ill loose on society, it is cruel. Many of them live tortured lives and need the support of an institutional setting to live comfortably and safely and to feel secure.
Cuomo needs to focus on making citizens safer by identifying, treating, and confining or institutionalizing those that are unstable and that present a risk to society. Combined with security officers in schools, your children will be much safer than if they impose more useless, ineffective, and unconstitutional laws that violate the rights of the innocent gun owner.
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Post by bobbbiez on Apr 1, 2013 20:27:52 GMT -5
Ok kiddo, after I write it and move out of town in a witness protection program before it's published I promise to send you a copy definitely in a brown paper wrapper. ;D I bet I have a few wondering ( worrying) if they'll be in my book called "Last Call' an autobiography of a former bartender. 
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Post by Clipper on Apr 1, 2013 20:49:21 GMT -5
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Post by bobbbiez on Apr 1, 2013 23:26:09 GMT -5
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Your first statement confuses me. How long has it been since one is required to register a hand gun? If that has been the requirement that has been abide by then I don't understand why all of a sudden it's such a big deal to register ones long guns. That was my question. 
;D 
