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Post by clarencebunsen on Sept 13, 2011 14:23:23 GMT -5
I think for pollution ratings all of NY gets lumped in with the metro area and so we are mandated to have gas with a higher oxygen content (ethanol).
I haven't had the small engine problems described. My snow blower is 12 years old, my lawnmower around 20. For both I've just used what I get at the pumps (the snow blower does require oil mixed into the gas).
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Post by Clipper on Sept 13, 2011 14:52:35 GMT -5
Kathy's Dodge Caravan had burnt intake valves that have been attributed to alcohol content in the gasoline we burn. It is a 2002, and is in good shape other than the fact that we had to have a valve job done because of burnt intake valves and valve guides. A 2002 was most likely not engineered to burn gas with such high ethanol content. We had a tendency to buy "brand X" gas from various convenience stores, wherever the price was lowest for the van. Performance in a minivan was not a major factor, lol. We paid for it in the end. One reason that I only burn Shell or Exxon. While not 100% fool proof, or guaranteed, I am more confident that I am receiving a more uniform high quality product with the additives that keep my injectors clean etc.
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Post by firstamendment on Sept 13, 2011 22:13:39 GMT -5
Depends on the ethanol content. Modern vehicles should be able to handle up to 10%. A 2002 Caravan isn't that old, especially since there have been some Flex Fuel vehicles out there about as long or longer. Perhaps you've got gas with higher E content than 10? Not sure.
Something many don't realize is Ethanol has less energy for the same given volume of gasoline. That is one of the reasons why fuel economy suffers with ethanol added to gasoline. Another issue is the chemical make up of the stuff. As it is now, it is used as an oxygenate for pollution purposed. They used to use MTBE but found out it was not good once it ended up in the ground water. Now, I am not sure if ethanol burns hotter, meaning combustion temperatures get hotter than with gasoline, but if that is true, it could explain why you burnt valved. A lean mixture will also do that, burn hotter.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Sept 14, 2011 5:14:00 GMT -5
Both methanol & ethanol burn at a lower temperature than gasoline. Both have combustion product which can include water & acids which could contribute to corrosion. Both boost octane which should help reduce any knock & associated damage.
Both are less volatile than gasoline which can make winter starting harder, hence summer & winter blends.
My 2005 Caravan is stickered that it can accept E85 blends, never tried it though. The manual says not to switch back & forth between that & 10% blends.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Sept 14, 2011 7:08:32 GMT -5
Do the math.
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Post by Clipper on Sept 14, 2011 10:15:30 GMT -5
In reference to your cartoon CB, I used to laugh and shake my head when my neighbor in N Utica used to drive from Herkimer Rd to Verona to buy gas at Save-On. At best, he burned two gallons, and more than likely three or more in making the trip to save the difference in price.
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Post by firstamendment on Sept 14, 2011 11:37:56 GMT -5
My 2005 Caravan is stickered that it can accept E85 blends, never tried it though. The manual says not to switch back & forth between that & 10% blends. then that is a Flex Fuel vehicle which can use either. The fuel tables in the engine computer have parameters for either fuel and it is my understanding there is a sensor in the tank to ''detect'' the type of fuel being used.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Sept 14, 2011 12:05:12 GMT -5
One error in my earlier post, it's actually a 2003 Caravan. From the manual not all Caravans of that year were rated for E85.
I looked into it when we were making a trip to MN and I knew my father regularly used E85. Since he was normally careful about mileage & cost, I thought it was worth investigating. Spent time looking in the manual & on-line before I realized that the sticker next to the gas cap said it was OK.
I eventually decided that since the manual suggested against switching back & forth and E85 is not common in NY to avoid experiment while vacationing far from home.
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Post by JGRobinson on Sept 15, 2011 6:05:36 GMT -5
When SAVON opened they were about 30 cents a gallon lower than everyone else. Privates complained and after a couple years, they raised their price to within a few cents of everyone else. They have done the same with Smokes.
The privates are now competing again and we are now paying more! Everyone wins except the consumer! This entire game is about taxes, NY takes more than in taxes than the vendor makes in profit.
I get lousy millage and lower power with the ethanol added garbage. Ethanol additives are a travesty of absurdity! We have billions of barrels of oil under our feet, starvation here and around the world and someone decided to take food and turn it into a lower quality fuel, thats crazy.
It was an easy sell, farmers already grow it, distillers already made ethanol, all we had to do was super-size it and were done! Brazil uses almost 100% Ethanol, we are also paying them to search for oil! Brazil is a country with Rich and poor, not much in between.
We have 20 methods of making Ethenol from sludge and biological waste now but we already sold our souls to Corn Bread Fuel!
Thats what happens when the government creates the norms instead of a natural shift by the populace based on sensibility!
The CFL's are the same deal, they are the new standard for high efficiency lighting and they have been the largest single cause of Mercury related exposures and waste issues since the disposable battery. If you have 50 CFL's in your house, you have enough mercury to kill your entire family. LED's are more efficient, longer lasting and can meet and exceed ROHS and most other environmental standards today!
The Government says its here to protect us and lead us down the "correct paths"; consistently, they have been wrong! They are wrong on corn based Ethanol also.
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Post by Clipper on Sept 15, 2011 7:29:16 GMT -5
I have to wonder how much validity there is to the claim that corn based ethanol production is causing a shortage of corn for cattle feeding, driving up the cost of feed for farmers that raise livestock, and what impact that is having on prices at the grocery store.
I don't know how the corn is processed, so I am also wondering if the mash or whatever form the corn takes on during the process is salvageable and used for feed such as the wet brewery grains that a brewery sells to farmers for feed.
My opinion is probably myopic, but I feel if you don't live and drive in an area where smog is a problem, there is no need for the oxygenation factor in ethanol supplemented fuel. We all are suffering for a localized problem in the cities the size of NYC, Atlanta and LA.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Sept 15, 2011 8:58:06 GMT -5
A few years ago I read a study from ND State U validating much of what you said. The corn residue from ethanol, like dried brewers grain, is useful as cattle feed. As I recall the protein to starch ratio was better than for unprocessed corn (make sense the starch & sugars were converted to alcohol & yeast). The moisture content was higher than ideal so some drying was required.
I can't find it right now. I'll look later.
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Post by firstamendment on Sept 15, 2011 11:26:52 GMT -5
I have also read that the bi-products from making the ethanol can be useful.
No, not all the Caravans were E85 capable, just the flex fuel variety. You would have a 3.3L V-6 and bet that if you looked at the VIN the 8th character is your engine code, it should be 3, which is the designation for the flex fuel 3.3L.
I like the idea of alternative fuels and energy sources but so far I'm not really impressed with ethanol as an alternative solution to gasoline.
Ironically, ethanol and biofuels are nothing new. They are a rehash of long ago ideas. George Washington Carver along with Henry Ford developed some ethanol type fuels in the early part of the 20th century. The fact that petroleum based fuels were much cheaper is the reason why it didn't go anywhere. The US addiction to oil is about 100 years old now. If not longer.
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Post by firstamendment on Sept 15, 2011 11:27:55 GMT -5
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Post by clarencebunsen on Sept 15, 2011 12:05:19 GMT -5
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Post by firstamendment on Sept 15, 2011 12:21:10 GMT -5
The Matt brewery used to give away the used hops to farmers years ago to feed cattle.
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