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Post by Swimmy on Aug 22, 2011 22:06:44 GMT -5
Longtimer, I don't disagree with the first sentence. However, it should still be commensurate with the level of schooling. My salary is reflective of my experience and work ethic, minus uncle sam and the economy. I agree that many people in my generation believe that a degree automatically entitles you to a six-figured salary, a brand new BMW, a 3500 sqft house, a country club membership, and other perks. I certainly do not mean to imply that I should be at that level. I have not earned nearly the level of experience that would justify such a salary, or lifestyle. I doubt I will ever reach that point. I plan on having kids, so I'm pretty sure most of that will be out the window. It does not help I will be paying student loans until I'm 60. Yet, I know several people in my high school class who have passed over job offers that were highly competitive for people just entering their field, merely because they believe they should just move into their interviewer's position overnight, with little to no experience.
However, there needs to be an incentive to obtaining a higher education. Typically, that was higher salaries, better perks, and more benefits. Today, that is grayed out and the lines are not as clear.
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Post by JGRobinson on Aug 23, 2011 5:00:13 GMT -5
LT, I agree with your education Vs Pay statement but Unions do not allow for non certified skill sets to enter their pool. Im one of those with a HS diploma and nothing much else. My experience and non college training is extensive but I still have no official Educrat shingle.
17 years ago, one of those that interviewed me asked me "Don't you think you would be more qualified for this job if you had a degree?", my response was a very insincere, "Yes, I suppose your correct". My new boss was a self made Electronics Engineer, finest kind, he and I hit it off immediately. I did get the job but have always been punished by the uppers for a lack of acceptable Educational documentation. My Boss and good friend passed away 6 years ago, (RIP Mr Ray), I am the only one of my kind on the Campus so they have little choice but to pay me for my knowledge but I certainly would make much more if I had the Bachelors Degree my position requires.
That differentiation cant be made in a Union Contract, all of the same level employees are considered equal even though they clearly are not. Lineman is no dig on them either, its an entry level Technical position. Kinda like 25 years ago when I was an apprentice Electronics Tech in a TV Shop, $4.00 per hour, no bennies and all the possibilities to learn and climb off the bottom of the E-trade pool. We hired a couple Associates in EST that just could not learn the repair trade even though they were top of their class in MVCC. They were book smart but couldnt turn a screwdriver or measure a test point without sending up smoke signals!
If I had chosen not to learn my new trade in a reasonable period of time, not only would I have been fired, but I wouldn't be in Electronics at all, $4.00 per hour didn't pay the bills very well. I still must keep up with the new technology changes or I will be tossed to the side like a used Condom, the protection ends when my knowledge is no longer relevant.
Im still growing in my career and I cant imagine that I will cease that anytime soon but if I had just settled for staying entry level, $20 per hour with full bennies and protection would have been great compensation in my eyes. Ive certainly worked a hell of lot harder to earn a hell of allot less than that many times in my life.
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Post by firstamendment on Aug 23, 2011 6:12:43 GMT -5
A degree is a piece of paper. Yes, a person with a degree should have a good amount of education in a given field. However, don't discount practical knowledge and experience. I have seen time and again people who are book smart that could not apply their knowledge in real world working situations. And there are people out there with no college degrees at all who have worked in their fields for years and have excelled. How about Bill Gates? He's not a college grad, is he?
I know my first job doing accounting related work I was amazed and drawn in when I began to see how what I learned was applied in a real setting. I can bet Swimmy and some of you have also felt this way in your respective fields. It was during moments like that that what I was taught was really making sense. But then, I've always had this natural curiousity to know how things work and why.
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Post by dgriffin on Aug 23, 2011 7:18:49 GMT -5
I think by and large wages are determined by the labor market. Employers will pay more for workers they need who are in less supply. However, JG's post points out an area of exception, and it's no real surprise that an educational institution would overly value the diplomas they are in the business of selling. Frankly, and to be slightly derisive, nothing would surprise me in that world where I have a little experience. I once wanted to work in a college environment, but the jarring contrasts in the perception of reality between the familiar business world and an academic department deterred me.
Today's world is getting more technically complicated and workers who want to be paid well should get training beyond high school. (It amazes me to hear some complain of a lack of opportunity with a high school diploma when we've been told since the 1950's that two more years of school would be necessary to compete in the modern world.) Colleges have since WW2 become more vocationally oriented, offering degrees in subjects other than Greek Antiques. A community college will grant you an associate's degree in Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning. A university will give you a bachelor's degree in journalism, another trade. In most cases, the possession of a degree probably matters most to a job seeker early in his or her career when potential is what is offered to an employer.
Swimmy's problem is Hollywood. Too many kids watched LA Law and similar programs and later flooded law schools over the past twenty years. There was a similar uptick in admissions to marine biology curricula when Flipper was a popular TV show. Just think, if Swimmy were ten years older he'd be an underpaid below-decks researcher on a pilot boat in Bimini. But at least he'd have coworkers wearing bikinis.
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Post by dgriffin on Aug 23, 2011 7:22:46 GMT -5
By the way, I'm not sure where LT saw those PhD's sitting around slurping coffee and not earning their salaries, but if it was at a company that's still in business, he may have misjudged their value. No business operation can or would pay for people who are not contributing to the bottom line.
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Post by longtimer on Aug 23, 2011 10:49:37 GMT -5
Well Dave, I watched it for many many years in a local corporation that is still in business. The fact is many of these people learn how to do almost nothing and take credit from others. They are masters at staying close enough to something to take credit for it if all goes well and always having someone to blame between them and anything that goes wrong. I personally know a number of HR directors and they say it is far more common than you might think.
I respectfully disagree with you that corporations do not have people that do not contribute or pull their weight. While not rampant it happens in for profits and not for profits at all levels, union and non-union, degreed and non-degreed or if you prefer skilled vs non-skilled and that was really my point.
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Post by firstamendment on Aug 23, 2011 11:16:49 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree with you that corporations do not have people that do not contribute or pull their weight. While not rampant it happens in for profits and not for profits at all levels, union and non-union, degreed and non-degreed or if you prefer skilled vs non-skilled and that was really my point. Oh how I'm sure we can exchange stories for weeks about dead weight. So right you are.
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Post by dgriffin on Aug 23, 2011 14:52:16 GMT -5
Well Dave, I watched it for many many years in a local corporation that is still in business. The fact is many of these people learn how to do almost nothing and take credit from others. They are masters at staying close enough to something to take credit for it if all goes well and always having someone to blame between them and anything that goes wrong. I personally know a number of HR directors and they say it is far more common than you might think. I respectfully disagree with you that corporations do not have people that do not contribute or pull their weight. While not rampant it happens in for profits and not for profits at all levels, union and non-union, degreed and non-degreed or if you prefer skilled vs non-skilled and that was really my point. I agree there are layabouts in corporations, but I would place more emphasis on "not rampant." It's not good business to keep these folks on the payroll. Other than the obvious loss to the operation of the business, they breed resentment among other workers who are doing their jobs and they also teach an unwanted lesson to those who may want to slack off. I have not been in the corporate world since 1993 when I retired from it, so I can't speak with direct experience beyond that date, but given the economic conditions of this past decade and from what I've read, companies have stepped up efforts to eliminate any non-productive elements from their businesses. Unfortunately, the training of managers may have also been curtailed for expense reasons and that would indeed contribute to a lack of workplace discipline. It takes a real manager to get folks organized and working. And it takes a supporting executive staff (or HR) to tell an employee to get off their duff or go elsewhere. I hope the companies you two are thinking of are not in my portfolio. Nothing brings a company down faster than its employees (and that includes the management.)
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Post by Swimmy on Aug 23, 2011 17:39:29 GMT -5
Swimmy's problem is Hollywood. Too many kids watched LA Law and similar programs and later flooded law schools over the past twenty years. There was a similar uptick in admissions to marine biology curricula when Flipper was a popular TV show. Just think, if Swimmy were ten years older he'd be an underpaid below-decks researcher on a pilot boat in Bimini. But at least he'd have coworkers wearing bikinis. Actually, my decision to go into law was not based on Hollywood (I think I was 5 when LA Law aired its series finale, and I never saw a single episode then or now). I decided I liked arguing and since I couldn't be a robot or fighter pilot, it seemed like a good idea. I should have tried harder to become a fighter pilot, but that's not the point. I blame society. My parents, my teachers, and even after-school specials reinforced us to "go to school; get good grades; and get a high-paying job." What a farce THAT turned out to be. As for the explosion of law school applications, the problem was due to the changing economy during the clinton administration. As college graduates began to learn, those high-paying jobs dried up. Most chose not to go on to medical school, so law school was the next best option.
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Post by dgriffin on Aug 23, 2011 18:45:57 GMT -5
Yes, I'd forgotten about the "so many law school admissions due to the economy" theory and it has a lot of truth to it. But I like my LA Law and Flipper scenarios better! Maybe instead of saying "It's the economy, stupid," James Carville should have said, "Go to Law School, stupid!" (I miss James since I stopped watching TV. Totally misdirected, but a fine mind and sharp wit.) Yes, the economy has changed and education is no longer the ticket it used to be. But no loss your not getting into Fighter Pilot School. They'll all soon be replaced by drones!
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Post by JGRobinson on Aug 23, 2011 18:49:10 GMT -5
"Unfortunately, the training of managers may have also been curtailed for expense reasons and that would indeed contribute to a lack of workplace discipline. It takes a real manager to get folks organized and working." You nailed it.
They replaced Management with "Professionals", the theory being, if you great at the job you do, you will be great teaching others how to do theirs correctly. Their Technical skills are often great, their management skills are often nonexistent.
Leaders are not Born, they are created via Mentor-ship, Training and Experience leading smaller less important activities first. No leadership skills means nobody knows who's in charge and few outside of the scope of Upper Administrative really care as long as they get their pay on time.
Swimmys also blaming the right folks, Society! The same ones who said he shouldn't learn a trade as an Electrician, Backhoe Operator or HVAC Technician that pays $40 per hour. Sad part about that is that those jobs now are going to skilled foreign workers legal and otherwise.
He and the rest of his classmates were told to become Dr's, Lawyers and Teachers, now they have the bills without the "Fabulous" jobs that were promised.
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Post by dgriffin on Aug 23, 2011 21:15:25 GMT -5
A friend is getting $65 an hour running a backhoe on government jobs. $34 per hour on jobs done for earthlings. I didn't become a backhoe operator for the same reason Swimmy didn't. I presume we each thought we could do better in another job in the attainment of money and prestige. I'm not sure I know what prestige is anymore, but I do know what money is. Today I'd take the money. But in younger days I wanted both.
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Post by Swimmy on Aug 23, 2011 23:17:15 GMT -5
I could care less about prestige. IF it is a job I believe in and will yield me more money for my troubles than flipping burgers, then I will be a fan.
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Post by Swimmy on Aug 23, 2011 23:20:19 GMT -5
Lol, yes, let's go with flipper-watching LA Law dreaming fans caused the influx of marine biologists and lawyers, rather than girls in bikinis and beach going for marine biologists and hot secretary sex in the supply closet for lawyers.
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Post by dgriffin on Aug 23, 2011 23:39:49 GMT -5
Hahahaha! Good choice!
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