Ethanol v Oil

[Swimmy]

I've read some mixed reviews about using ethanol, derived from corn, to replace oil and reduce our dependency on foreign oil. The biggest counter argument I've heard is that more oil is used to produce ethanol than if we just kept with the same system in place now.

Anyone have any information about this one?

Thanks.

[losjibaros]

Serious???

You have to use oil to produce Ethanol but you use more Oil in doing so than what you make in Ethanol..


Swimmy you are going to make a fine lawyer some day!

[Swimmy]

I don't know enough about the process of producing ethanol. But that's what I've heard some opponents to ethanol cite as a reason for their opposition.

[Clipper]

I would assume that the oil used in ethanol production would be to provide a heat source. I would think that electricity or coal or other sources would be available, without using oil. Probably the suggestion that more oil is used to produce ethanol than to burn the oil instead, is simply smoke generated by the oil industry, or petroleum stock holders.

Sounds like "methane" is the way to go. Beans are cheap, high in protein, low in fat, and produce enough methane with one bowl of good chili, to fuel your car for the daily commute.

All we need is a logical, and acceptable device to funnel it from driver to fuel injection system, and to meter is for controlled combustion. No oil burned there!

Save the corn for cowfeed and whiskey.

[Clipper]

Seriously, swimmy, any process to distill any product, is going to require a large and hot source of heat, and that source is usually either oil or natural gas. It is most likely that coal would not be accepted in most areas of the country by any neighbors to an ethanol operation.

The premise that it would conceivably take too much oil to distill ethanol, to make it a viable venture, makes a lot of sense to me.

[losjibaros]

what if we produced ethanol so that we can use it to produce ethanol? might sound crazy.. but than agian we really need something in amercia to replace the 500.00 hammers and the 12,000 toilet seats of the 80's

[frankcor]

It is true. You need to cook the corn-mash to get it to ferment and produce the ethanol, and that uses BTUs. Based on current oil costs and efficiencies, it doesn't make sense to burn oil to produce the electricity to generate the heat on a thermodynamic bases. Only someone using a political basis would think otherwise. The same is true for electricity generated by burning coal or natural gas but not quite as wasteful. Why do you think ethanol/gas blends cost more than gasoline?

The only way it MIGHT make sense would be if you dedicated a hydraulic or geothermal source of electricity to the ethanol production but that window of opportunity is slowly closing. Or maybe we could buy nuclear-generated electricity from France?

[nhcitizen18]

I hate to be glib about it, but Ethanol is a joke. The only reason it even exists now is due to the disproportionate amount of influence Iowans have on selecting the winner of the presidential primaries. If candidates didn't have to kow-tow to Iowans to become President Ethanol wouldn't even be a blip on the radar screen.

Ethanol requires a very large amount of energy to produce and if its not produced from the renewable resources Frankcor was describing all it's doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul. At the same time government subsidies of Ethanol cause the cost of Soda, Cereal, Beef and any other corn derived product to be higher than the free market would dictate which costs all of us more money.

Solution: Move the Iowa Caucasus back to Super Tuesday. Then the nation can get real about finding a true alternative energy source (My vote is still for the expansion of our nuclear power plants) and get rid of its ethanol fantasy.

[frankcor]

I cracked up during the Republican debate in LA this week when Romney was asked about some special subsidy he had promised the voters of Florida (I forget the actual item in question). He replied, jokingly: "Well, I was in Florida when I made that promise. I make the same promise for California now."

I'm with you on the nuclear option, nhcitizen. Even the French, for goodness sakes, know how to do it safely.

[Swimmy]

Alright, thanks for the explanation.

[clarencebunsen]

There have been a lot of studies over the past few years on the net energy production from the manufacture of corn based ethanol. Oil is used in planting, manufacture of fertilizers & pesticides, harvest, transportation, fermentation & distillation. The energy balance seems to be positive but not great.

National Geographic covered this a few months ago (November?) and came to the conclusion that alcohol production from sugar cane in Brazil was a lot more efficient that from corn in the US but the enviornmental cost was severe.

I've never seen a similar study using sugar beets. Maybe because there are so few votes in North Dakota.

[Clipper]

I burn midgrade in my hemi pickup. When I burn exxon, I get about 3 miles per gallon or better mileage than when I burn the cheaper brands with the same octane, but 10% ethanol added, such as if I am stuck and buy gas at Food City's pumps or Wally World. That gas is like water. I get crappy performance and mileage both.

I don't care if they ever find a way to make cheap ethanol. We only drive the "guzzler" to pull the fifth wheel and to come north at Christmas, and drive the economical mini van most of the time. I have had the truck since Oct 2006, and it has 21,000 miles on it. May get a diesel dually one ton next year and trade the trailer for something bigger with slide out living room and kitchen areas. Someone will get a nice clean one owner, when I trade my truck, if they can afford to feed a hemi, haha.

Does most gas up there have the 10% ethanol blend? I think it sucks. For the price you pay up there you should at least get pure gasoline, LOL.

[nhcitizen18]

I don't believe any of the gas in the Utica area is an ethanol blend...at least I've never seen any advertised as such. I hope it never gets to the point where we have to use that crap either.

Hybrids would be ok, a true hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (that could somehow be made so as not to have "Hindenberg" issues) would be better. I am all for getting rid of gasoline powered vehicles since the day we do that is the day we can stop being involved in regions of the world that hate us.

I keep beating a dead horse, but nuclear power is far less dangerous than the military engagements oil is forcing us to keep entering into to preserve our economy. No more need for oil...no more need for the Middle-East. Let the Israeli's and Arabs blow each other up after that since we won't need any of them any more.

[Clipper]

Does anyone remember back when Gasahol first came to Utica, and was sold at the convenience store on the corner of Flanigan Road in Marcy? I had a v-6, 4.3 litre chevy truck back then. I used it a couple of times, and the damn truck rattled with spark knock so bad you couldn't hear the radio, LOL. I think that was in the 70's.

[clarencebunsen]

Alcohol has a less energy content that an equivalent amount of gasoline, so all other things being equal you should get lower mileage with alcohol than with gasoline. One of the things to consider if you are trying to compare prices.

My father uses an E-85 blend (85% alcohol) with no ill effects. On my last visit home I thought about trying it. I did a lot of internet searching to find if my engine would accept E-85 before I figured out that I could just open the gas cap and look at the sticker.

One thing I did learn is that it is a bad idea to switch back and forth between gas & alcohol. Alcohol can dissolve deposits that gasoline leaves behind and cause driveability problems. If you are going to switch, fill a nearly empty tank and don't alternate back and forth.

I decided not to mess around until there was a reliable supply of alcohol blended fuel in the Utica area.