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Post by bobbbiez on Jun 29, 2011 13:07:19 GMT -5
 Doesn't make any sense to me why the UFD shouldn't be able to have their service. On every call the fire department has to dispatch the EMTs anyways, but without their own ambulance service, they can not transport. Seems pretty stupid to me to have to use another's service when the UFD is already there. 
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Post by firstamendment on Jun 29, 2011 13:45:25 GMT -5
I've lived in a number of places where a municipal or county government ran a hospital. In the Twin Cities one of the largest hospitals is Hennipen County General. MY wife did her ER training there, very busy ER. The TV show ER was set in Cook County Hospital in Chicago. There are also numerous Veterans Hospitals operated by the federal government. I guess that brings up another issue, whether government should or needs to be involved in actually dispensing healthcare. |
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Post by Clipper on Jun 29, 2011 13:59:22 GMT -5
As far as I can see, unless it is a Veteran's Hospital, or a military hospital, the government SHOULD NOT be dispensing healthcare at any other level.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Jun 29, 2011 14:54:33 GMT -5
I'd forgotten but locally Oneida County operated a nursing home here at Broadacres. They shut it down a few years ago & turned the function over to Faxton-St.Lukes where it became part of St Lukes Home. I don't know if the county still participates in it.
Herkimer County still has their nursing home but they have been trying to get out of the business. I think the way the numbers worked out on the last proposal I saw, they would have to pay someone to take it.
Municipal hospitals have been falling out of fashion because they generally require taxpayer subsidy. It's hard to imagine in the current healthcare climate that a city would try to start one as a money making venture.
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Post by Clipper on Jun 29, 2011 16:03:12 GMT -5
Either Fulton, or Montgomery County ran or runs a county home along route 5 down near Fonda. I used to pick up an old man from there who would travel into Fonda every Sunday to buy his chewing tobacco and I think a pint or two of whiskey. I never charged him the bus fare. Had kids that lived in another state, that had dumped him there and had not been to see him in several years. I think there used to be a county home in Rome on Floyd Ave back in the fifties, I am not sure. There was also one in Madison County, South of Eaton, going toward Lebanon Reservoir.
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Post by longtimer on Jun 29, 2011 17:02:50 GMT -5
Oneida County has no connection to St. Lukes Home. St. Lukes took the operation completely off their hands. St. Lukes Home was created to accomodate the patients at Broad Acres, there was no St. Lukes Home prior to that. St. Lukes Hospital ran the Allen Calder Skilled Nursing Facility which became part of St. Lukes Home a number of years later.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Jun 29, 2011 17:46:16 GMT -5
Thanks, I should remember that but the details have gotten fuzzy.
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Post by firstamendment on Jun 29, 2011 18:57:24 GMT -5
As far as I can see, unless it is a Veteran's Hospital, or a military hospital, the government SHOULD NOT be dispensing healthcare at any other level. Veterans and/or military hospitals at least make sense since military personnel are government property so to speak. Herkimer County currently runs a nursing facility on Rt 28 between Herkimer and Middleville. The name is suddenly escaping my head. Anyway, it is in bad shape and the deal they were making for Bassett I believe to buy it out fell through. I think that should be better handled by the private sector. Country Manor I think it is. I remember the name Broadacres but can't remember where it was. |
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Post by firstamendment on Jun 29, 2011 19:03:32 GMT -5
Either Fulton, or Montgomery County ran or runs a county home along route 5 down near Fonda. I used to pick up an old man from there who would travel into Fonda every Sunday to buy his chewing tobacco and I think a pint or two of whiskey. I never charged him the bus fare. Had kids that lived in another state, that had dumped him there and had not been to see him in several years. Too often that is the case, where elderly family are dumped into homes. My wife has been a nurse in long term care facilities for a number of years and it is really sad to see it firsthand. There are a few nursing homes in Rome but I am not sure if any are county run. Trying to thing of what is out in the Fonda area. There was one but I don't think it is a county run facility though. Clarence, from what I've heard of the condition of Country Manor in Herkimer, seriously they'll have to pay someone to take it. The State wants to close it from what I've heard. |
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larry
French Fry
Posts: 169
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Post by larry on Jun 29, 2011 19:20:35 GMT -5
Looks to me like there could possibly have been a case made for the city run ambulance service had it not been promoted in the manner it was, as a profit making, revenue source for the city. I still believe that there IS room in the city of Utica for two ambulance services, and many other cities successfully and justifiably have city ambulances run by the fire departments. I still believe that the EMS Council should be comprised of parties with no financial gain or interest to be garnered by their decisions or rulings. ER Doctors and other healthcare professionals. Leave it to Utica and the run of the mill Utica politicians to skip the legalities and simply jump the gun. Leave it to Utica to jump in the shit, uninformed, and without proper research into the issue, and then spend your tax money defending their stupidity in court cases. Clipper, you just hit the nail on the head! This is all about the past two administrations and their complete disregard for the law and the process. Whether you agree or disagree with that process - it is what it is. They have entirely ignored it and have attacked anyone that has questioned it over the years. Now look where we are. They have attacked Councilmen Vescera and Zecca for questioning the law and asking for an alternate plan in case this very thing happened. They had NO PLAN. I have no problem at all with the job UFD does, or the UFD in general. We have some of the best firefighters in the state if you ask me. But you said it all. This was never about a need of service. It was about creating an empire and justifying over bloated salaries/overtime. Some may not like hearing that, but it's a fact. How about this... The state held a meeting today at Faxton (I believe) and not a single member of the administration showed up. The only ones from city hall were Councilmen Vescera and Zecca, again. If the administration went through the process correctly, who knows, we might not be in the position we're in right now. And if they were approved and followed the law, I would welcome the ambulance with open arms. But they didn't, and they shouldn't be defended for acting like arrogant, crooked politicians. That's what the problem has been in Utica for the past 50 years. Enough is enough. Why can't we just do things the right way around here? |
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larry
French Fry
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Post by larry on Jun 29, 2011 19:36:21 GMT -5
www.osc.state.ny.us/legal/2005/op2005.8.htm"There is, however, no similar authority for a village to earn a "fair return" from the operation of a municipal ambulance service and use "profits" resulting therefrom for general municipal purposes. Further, we have expressed the opinion that the statutory scheme under which municipalities can charge fees for ambulance services is intended to pre-empt local laws in this area (1994 Opns St Comp No. 94-7, p11). Accordingly, a city may not set fees for the provision of emergency medical transport services in an amount designed to generate revenue in excess of the cost of providing such services.1"
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Post by firstamendment on Jun 29, 2011 20:06:42 GMT -5
Given that the UFD compliment has not increased in many years, they are definitely pumping up the overtime and padding the pensions with this ambulance scheme. And no, this is not a slam against the firefighters themselves. I know some and I tried to be one. This is a slam against the administration for ignoring the law and thumbing their noses at it when it is being enforced.
Good find, will have to read that notice. And I am going to post that on the OD because it is certainly something the newspaper should be pursuing as a story, how the City is ripping people off.
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Post by firstamendment on Jun 29, 2011 20:52:27 GMT -5
Larry, I posted that link along with some excerpts from it on the most recent story on the OD, giving you credit for digging it up. I also emailed it to Dan Miner who wrote the story, also giving you the credit for the link.
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Post by bobbbiez on Jun 30, 2011 15:31:57 GMT -5
Doesn't make any sense to me why the UFD shouldn't be able to have their service. On every call the fire department has to dispatch the EMTs anyways, but without their own ambulance service, they can not transport. Seems pretty stupid to me to have to use another's service when the UFD is already there. Anyone want to answer what I posted?  |
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Post by clarencebunsen on Jun 30, 2011 16:51:46 GMT -5
I don't have a dog in this fight but I will try.
The state of New York has determined that in order for a health care provider to provide a new service or service in a new area that provider must demonstrate that there is a need for another provider of that service. This doesn't apply just to ambulance services. Faxton-St.Luke's cannot offer heart surgery because the program at St. E's is sufficient for the area. Each hospital and nursing home has a fixed number of beds that are licensed.
The same applies to ambulances. In order to get a certificate of need Utica would need to show that the area needed additional ambulance service. Unless there were a lot of calls which were not answered in a timely manner, it's difficult to show this. From everything I've read, the city did not even attempt to show that three more ambulances were needed in the city.
So far their response seems to be to thumb their nose at the law and in effect say "bite me." I don't think this is a winning legal argument.
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Doesn't make any sense to me why the UFD shouldn't be able to have their service. On every call the fire department has to dispatch the EMTs anyways, but without their own ambulance service, they can not transport. Seems pretty stupid to me to have to use another's service when the UFD is already there. 
