Teen indicted in grandfather's death

[Swimmy]

Teen indicted in grandfather's death

This is a sad case. The boy needs psychiatric help. It is unfortunate that it took so long before he was going to receive it, especially because it happened too late and someone died because of it. It is my understanding that his family was going to have an intervention and take him to a psychiatrist that very same day.

I'm not one to advocate an insanity defense because you still broke the law. If you meet the M'Naghten test, you're deemed incapable of appreciating the fruits of your crime, i.e. you did not know you were committing a crime. That's fine, but it should not be an affirmative defense relieving you of criminal liability. Instead, NY should do what MI does, have a guilty but mentally ill verdict. The verdict takes into account that the person still broke the law. However, it also recognizes the defendant's insanity. I don't remember what happens to the defendant at that point, but usually defendants who successfully employ the insanity defense end up in a mental hospital until their illness is cured. Have the same thing.

Yes, the insanity defense exists to show that the defendant lacked the criminal intent to commit the crime. But a crime was committed, nevertheless.

I hope that whatever the outcome this boy is able to receive the proper treatments he deserves.

[frankcor]

What makes me even sadder is that if treatment is effective, he'll then begin to grieve what he has done.

[Swimmy]

I'm sure it will seep in little by little. He did turn himself into the police and confess. So he knew that much, perhaps it was because of his remorse. I don't know.

[thelma]

Years ago, I was talking with an Attorney that worked in the NYS Attorney General's Office about using an Insanity Defense. He said that NYS did NOT have an Insanity Defense. He said that in order to live in Society, a person must comply with the rules of Society and killing someone in a rage could not be used as an insanity type of defense.

I have always disagreed with this "Black and White" type of legal psylosphy as I feel we ALL are capable of committing murder if the right buttons are pushed. Thankfully, I've managed to avoid being put into this type of circumstance - but I've come very, very close to it!

Then there is the argument that anyone that actually commits murder has to be somewhat insane to even commit such a type of crime.

[Ralph]

I'll agree with Thelma that you have to be a bit off in order to do something like this, but the sad part is that even if he gets the help he needed....you can't go back.

He will or will not get better, but he will have to live with this for the rest of his life.

I guess that my question is, who really knows if he will be "cured" or if this type of event can happen again. They have been wrong before in the release of those they deemed cured.

[Swimmy]

I'm studying law right now, and I'm quite certain there is an insanity defense. I'm reviewing my criminal law notes right now, and there is nothing indicated that NY lacks an insanity defense.

You both are misunderstanding what the insanity defense means. It means that you are incapable of realizing that what you are doing is wrong. For example, if you're the modern version of Abraham who believes God told you to sacrifice your son in his name, you have a good chance of claiming insanity.

Yes, everyone is capable of murder, you just have to have the right buttons pushed. But if you, Thelma or Ralph, did have your buttons pushed in the right way to sway you to kill someone, you would still know that you were doing something wrong. You might feel justified, but you were capable of knowing that you committed a crime.

[Disgusted-Daily]

Whats sad is that he will now spend the better part of his adult life in a maxium security prison (burden to the family) where he will adapt to a new life style, forget about is wrong doing and will cost the state millions if and when he is ever released.

There is no sugar coating this terrible tragedy. There are programs in jail to help out his parole status, but overall the actual success rate is very low.

Only God can help this youngster now and bless his family and Grandfather.

[Swimmy]

todd said:

Whats sad is that he will now spend the better part of his adult life in a maxium security prison . . . .

I'm curious how you know this for a fact. I've been in the legal field for a decent amount of time, and one thing I have learned is that you can never predict how a jury will react. Sometimes, the cases that appear to be clear cut and will yield a sure-fire conviction end up in an acquittal.

[thelma]

Swimmy - It is true, you never know what a Jury will do. BUT, after serving on a Criminal Jury where the defendant was charged with 2nd Degree Murder with Depraved Indifference, I was faced with the fact that I literally had someone's life in my hands - which is a HUGE responsibility. Secondedly, the Judge made sure we understood that "Reasonable Doubt" meant (the legal definition).

We ended up convicting the Defendant of Manslaughter with a sentence of 5 to 10 years. In our opinion, the DA's office overcharged this Defendant and the person's death was accidental and not forseenable by the defendant.

[Ralph]

Swimmy is right though in the "insanity" aspect. There are so many roads that branch from and around it.

While most normal people can "lose it"; here you get into impairment, insanity, and a host of other possibilities that I sure have no clue about.

The fact the family itself seemed supportive of him after the fact tells me that this is something that may have been brewing in his mind for quite a while and it just chose that time & person to let loose.

[Clipper]

I read above that there was an inferrence that the family was "considering" Or had "scheduled" an intervention. Whether it be intervention be for drugs, alcohol, or mental and emotional problems. Whether the intervention be by a professional or a lay person, is not pertinent. The fact the intervention entered their minds, indicates to me, that there is an underlying problem with this young man.

I have read on the OD forum at the time of the "murder" that possibly Grandpa had abused the boy or there was a history that caused the murder. I have heard all the ranting about the family defending the boy. I have to think that there is definitely something in this situation that is an unknown to us all. I also think that our opinions are going to be varied and strongly stated.

I just want to register my own opinion, that this is a complicated case, and the boy obviously would not kill his grandfather, unless there was something going through his mind at the moment he picked up the knife. What went through his mind is known to nobody but him. It may have been someting real, or it may have been something imagined, but very real to him.

Until we know if drugs were involved, or if the boy has mental illness issues, such as paranoid schizophrenia, we will not have the information needed to make an educated judgement. I will wait until this case reaches the courts, where I am sure that this young man will be thoroughly evaluated, and examined. When his cognative abilities or his state of mind can be determined by experts, we will know if it was a premeditated act of a disgusting magnitude, or simply a horrible tragedy, triggered by drug addiction, influence of medications, or a mental breakdown.

All I do at this point is to pray for the family in their time of grief. There is no possible way to rectify this tragedy. Mr. Bogan cannot be brought back. Mr. Bogan's death was a loss not only to family, but to the whole community, who had benefited from his works, and respected him for his community service. May he rest in peace.

[Swimmy]

I had not heard anything about abuse, just that the boy has been struggling with a mental illness for some time, refused to seek help and the family was going to have an intervention the same day he turned himself in after confessing to his grandfather's death. I forget which article this information was published in. Who said the boy was abused by his grandfather? Did they have any proof other than conjecture?

[Clipper]

Let me restate part of that last post. I didn't mean that the OD forum or moderators had insinuated that the grandfather had abused the kid. Ed Bogan was a wonderful person, and I would not add fuel to any rumor that he had acted improperly.

It was a possible allegation by one of the posters. It was said MAYBE grandpa abused the boy. There was no documentation, or justification for the allegation, and it was just stated as a possible scenario by one of the posters on the OD forum.

Sorry for the misconception I may have fostered with my misconstrued wording of the situation swimmy. Thank you for pointing it out, before I was guilty of casting or spreading any aspersions on the reputation of a great local civic leader, and wonderful man.

The whole purpose of my post is to squelch any such speculation until the courts can determine the facts surrounding the boy's actions. Thanks again.

[thelma]

None of us will ever know exactly what trigger was pushed that caused this terrible tragedy to occur. We will just have to wait for the Trial proceedings to see what evidence is allowed to be brought out in Court and the Jury's decision. No matter what the outcome, my heart goes out to this youth's family as there is nothing good that will ever be gained out of this tragic murder.

I know what Todd is saying as he is speaking from experience in connection with his job as a Correction Officer. Unfortunately, our Prison System does NOT offer psychriatric help for those that so desperately might need it. This young man, if convicted, will be locked away in a maximum security prison with hardened criminals and society will eventually forget all about him.

How many of us here remember the young man from Richfield Springs that killed his Mom and Dad and fled to Texas before America's Most Wanted found him and brought him back? That was at least 12 years ago and no one mentions his name anymore.

[bobbbiez]

I have to agree with everything Thelma stated.

If this young man is convicted he will be thrown into prison, they will throw the keys away and all, (except his family), will forget about him.

Such a tragedy for all involved. My prayers are offered for this young man, his Grandfather and his family. After all is over, it will be a long, hard and lonely road they will have to travel. So sad.