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Post by Swimmy on Jan 31, 2008 7:57:29 GMT -5
Residents want to have a say in New Hartford park projectIt's about time some of the public started to take an active interest. I tried to get my father to go to the meeting. He's furious that the school district has the money to fund this business project, but always needs more money for educating the students. He had other things to do, and I told him that's how democracy dies. We're not in a talking mood with each other.
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Post by nhcitizen18 on Jan 31, 2008 19:09:55 GMT -5
I have to disagree with your father on this one swimmy. The Hartford was prepared to leave its current location on Middle Settlement road in New Hartford in favor of a location in Rome or outside Oneida county.
By entering into an agreement such as this, The Hartford will stay within the town of New Hartford and will pay a PILOT for 15 years then pay full property taxes. Not to mention the fact that their nearly 700 jobs (many of them very well paying) will stay in New Hartford. I really can't see how this is bad for the school district or how it will raise people's taxes...if anything the fact that the Hartford will stay in New Hartford means that there will be a beneficial effect on residential property taxes.
BY entering into this agreement the town and school district will get a small amount of tax revenue (through the PILOT) now and will have a well-developed business park paying full taxes in 15 years. Without this deal the town and school district would get exactly 0 in taxes. How is the school district harming your father by doing this?
The local village idiot is now on the Utica OD forums spouting off about how he's going to issue a notice of claim against the New Hartford School District while, as usual, personally attacking school board members and school district leaders. He is doing everything he can to hurt New Hartford residents and New Hartford children but thankfully the law is not on his side. Bravo to New Hartford's leaders for having the vision to foster long term development and an increasing tax base in New Hartford.
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Post by strikeslip on Jan 31, 2008 19:17:38 GMT -5
Swimmy: Too bad your father did not go to the meeting. There was a lot revealed that was not reported in the Observer Dispatch. (1) Oneida County EDGE had NO projections on what impact this *taxpayer-subsidized* project would have on Hotel/Office occupancy (affecting taxpayers) elsewhere in the region. (2) $478,000 of Fees In Lieu of Mitigation previously collected by the Town of New Hartford from OTHER developers to mitigate the impacts from THEIR developments will be used to partially finance the Woods Road improvements needed to mitigate the Business Park's traffic impact. (3) The school district cites as their legal authority to "consent to a deviation" from the standard uniform payment in lieu of tax polity Gen Mun Law §858(15). Look that one up -- it only confers authority onto the IDAs to enter into agreements with taxing jurisdictions to split up payments -- but does not confer to the school district the right to apply its share of payments to non-educational purposes.
It is simply amazing what they are getting away with: conferring tax-payer subsidies to a private developer.
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Post by strikeslip on Jan 31, 2008 19:30:43 GMT -5
nhcitizen18 -- I have to disagree with you on this one. Taxpayers in General are being hurt because the government is siding in with a PRIVATE DEVELOPER to directly compete with other taxpayers in the region. If Mr. Adler wants to build his own development on his own land and compete with others in the region -- fine -- competition is the American Way -- but the taxpayers should not be financing it because it is unfair to competitors not getting the tax break.
He should also contribute the cost of the necessary road improvements to the Town of NH as Fees In Lieu of Mitigation to enable the Town to widen the road to accommodate his development. But the Town is giving him the benefit of fees collected from other developers... and the Town could not say what if any fees they intended to collect from him.
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Post by nhcitizen18 on Jan 31, 2008 20:20:22 GMT -5
Strike,
All well and good, but the loss of 700 more jobs would hurt this area. It would hurt New Hartford if they went to Rome and it would hurt the entire region if they packed up and left the Mohawk Valley all together.
PILOTS and arrangements such as these may not be the best solution to long term growth, but before you can perform corrective surgery you have to stop the bleeding. This is a stop gap measure that will at least keep The Hartford from becoming another sad story for this region.
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Post by Swimmy on Jan 31, 2008 21:28:06 GMT -5
Thank you for the updates, I have e-mailed this thread to my father.
My understanding is that he feels that the school district should not be spending its budget money on a clearly non-academic project. I think he means non-school related. Otherwise I think he supports the effort to keep those jobs in the area, just not how the bill is being paid and by whom.
I have to agree with him. It's great to see such an effort to keep the jobs in the area. But keep the school budget to school-related projects. I understand what you're implying by losing 600 high-paying jobs, but I think that's a bit of a stretch to justify school taxes going toward the effort.
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Post by strikeslip on Jan 31, 2008 23:29:48 GMT -5
"before you can perform corrective surgery you have to stop the bleeding" Nice analogy -- here's something in the same 'vein' [couldn't resist] This region is dying "from 1000 cuts" How many businesses have packed up and left NYS, taking 1000s of jobs with them, because they felt that their own government was working in competition against them? Because they did not want to become a 'ward of the state' themselves? We'll never know because they won't sit down and give you a detailed explanation . . . all we will know is that the jobs just keep leaving . . . strikeslip.blogspot.com/2008/01/ny-vs-pa-ny-loses.htmlI MIGHT be convinced to support just the tax breaks needed to keep the Hartford here -- but not the office park. Maybe New Hartford does not care about vacancy rates at the Utica Business Park or at the Holiday Inn, but it should care about such for the Commercial Drive location being vacated, the Ellinwood office building, and the Ramada Inn. The latter older New Hartford businesses are being placed at a competitive disadvantage to the new development because the new development will not be paying its full share of taxes. Sure more taxes will flow . . .for awhile. But when the older businesses get squeezed enough (and with declining population there will not be enough business to go around) they will go out of business, will stop paying taxes, and then what? |
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Post by frankcor on Feb 1, 2008 0:09:47 GMT -5
Well then, New Hartford could lay off some teachers. Think of the money they'll save.
::SNARF::
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Post by nhcitizen18 on Feb 1, 2008 6:19:39 GMT -5
"""Maybe New Hartford does not care about vacancy rates at the Utica Business Park or at the Holiday Inn, but it should care about such for the Commercial Drive location being vacated, the Ellinwood office building, and the Ramada Inn. The latter older New Hartford businesses are being placed at a competitive disadvantage to the new development because the new development will not be paying its full share of taxes. Sure more taxes will flow . . .for awhile. But when the older businesses get squeezed enough (and with declining population there will not be enough business to go around) they will go out of business, will stop paying taxes, and then what?"""
For the most part I agree with this statement. However in this particular instance at this particular moment I believe that our local leaders saw two choices: 1) Take this action or 2) Lose the business and its jobs. There should be a more comprehensive long range plan in place for issues of economic development such as this, but that takes leadership at the county and state level. I believe that New Hartford's leaders were doing what they were elected to do...look out for the interests of the majority of New Hartford residents. If I knew that local leaders had one of the two choices above and they chose to allow the loss of jobs I would not be happy with their decision. I disagree with you on a lot of stuff strike, but if you decide to run for the Oneida County legislature and be a proponent of some of the economic development ideas you have discussed you'd have my vote.
I also thought I read that the tax breaks were only for the Hartford. I don't believe that the hotel or doctor's office is getting any kind of tax break.
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Post by nhcitizen18 on Feb 1, 2008 6:27:27 GMT -5
Swimmy,
What money is the school district spending on this project? I haven't read or seen anything where any money is being spent by the school district to accomplish this.
Frankcor,
There might be one or two teachers that I'd like to see go elsewhere...but they'd need to hire replacements :-) Since I have been in New Hartford they have chosen not to replace certain retirees every year and as such their staffing levels are pretty much in-line from what I see...class sizes aren't really small or large at the moment.
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Post by Swimmy on Feb 1, 2008 7:11:27 GMT -5
Right from the article in the OD and from what I've read in other blogs and forums.
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Post by strikeslip on Feb 1, 2008 8:13:43 GMT -5
This is an interesting development: The developer of the proposed Business Park is going to donate 17 acres to the NHSD. www.uticaod.com/homepage/x1651590644Planned all along? Or in response to questions that have been raised about the benefits flowing from the project to the school district? New Hartford does not have to sell itself (and taxpayers) to the first John that comes along -- or accept the first offer. |
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Post by frankcor on Feb 1, 2008 8:49:43 GMT -5
Could this be a win-win situation? You can park a whole slew of school buses on 17 acres.
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Post by Swimmy on Feb 1, 2008 9:06:18 GMT -5
I just read that article a few moments ago and thought something was odd about it.
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Post by nhcitizen18 on Feb 1, 2008 16:28:08 GMT -5
The three taxing authorities - New Hartford Central School District ... - have decided to use the payment in lieu of taxes money to fund the $3.4 million Woods Highway project . . . .
OK I see what you're talking about now. You see this in a different light than I do. This money does not yet exist...it will only exist if the developer decides to build the project...and the developer will only build this project if he receives this agreement.
They're not really spending any taxpayer money, they're just not taking any from the company for a number of years. The doctor's office and the hotel will be taxed in full from what I understand so all things considered this is a small immediate net gain in the tax base and a large long-term gain if all goes well.
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