A New Hartford Man was found with pot

[Swimmy]

Again, on the disgrace forums, there was a lot of debate about the practicality of having more state troopers or two officers per patrol car.

On the top left of today's local section, is this article about a new hartford man who was pulled over for an expired registration that lead to finding 6 ounces of marijuana in his possession.

This is just one of the many examples of how "routine" traffic stops (though I'll be the first to say there is nothing routine about them) can lead to more than a speeding ticket, or in this case an expired registration.

Part of fighting crime is enforcing even the traffic laws. Some times a traffic stop is a pretext to making an arrest for something bigger, like those two who were arrested for heroine trafficking.

I wonder what nelsonrd over on the disgrace forums would say about this poor use of police resources to fighting crime.

[clipper220]

Yeah, swimmy, I was apalled by the ignorance of Nelsonrd in reference to the subject on the OD forum. I just simply gave up after a while. There was also an article in the OD that described a person being stopped in Westchester County with a real load of cocaine. I think it was the OD and that it was a local man, that was stopped for a traffic stop and had 60+ pounds of cocaine headed for the mohawk valley. One more dirtbag off the street, and it is not the first offense for this individual. He may be entitled to a fair trial, but the defense is going to have a hell of a time defending him, haha. If he were to get off on a technicality it would be a travesty of justice. 60+ pounds of cocaine can ruin a lot of Mohawk Valley lives.

[jduges]

You guys know where I stand on the drug front.....if glaxo smith klein and other manufacturers are legally allowed to sell drugs to people why wouldn't others be legal? I'm not for the use of drugs but it would completely eliminate the criminal element and reuce the number of poeple in our prisons further reduceing the tax burden for the rest of us.

[Swimmy]

I'm all for legalizing the stuff. I agree, it takes away the criminal thrill. Just like lowering the drinking age, it would kill underage drinking and teenage drinking.

[NHcitizen18]

The politics and general perceptions of the public will never allow drugs to be legalized. One of my majors in college was economics, and almost every economist out there can tell you the impossibility of ending drug use by trying to restrict the supply. You can't change a thing unelss you change the demand side of the equation.

I am in full agreement with legalization of pretty much every drug out there. I think the dramatic drop in violence that would accompany legalization would go a long way toward improving our neighborhoods.

[clipper220]

I suppose legalization would have it's positive effects on the crime rate. I would not want to see such crap as meth legalized, as it is manufactured by less than savory people in less than sterile environments with less than stable ingredients, with all sorts of dangerous chemicals.

Buying street grade, homemade meth, can be equated to buying whiskey made in an outhouse with creek water. Not something one would want to have injected into their body, unless they are addicted and desperate.

Other than that, other drugs might lose their lustre to some people liking the thrill of obtaining them. Pricing would sure put some dealers out of business, if you could buy cocaine in the drugstore. Especially if you could get a prescription for it, and pay a $15 copay, haha.

I guess it would be better to let people make their own decision as to whether they want to live or die, just as those that drink to excess, or abuse prescription drugs, or overeat to the point of obesity.

This is a hard concept for me to wrap myself around, seeing as I have a recovering addict in the family. So far he is doing well, but I still have visions of what he must have exposed himself to in acquiring and using the drugs. It scares me to death as a parent. The things he could have done while under the influence are also a concern. He was "lucky" to hit the bottom, homeless and broke, and start the climb back to a useful and full life, at a young age. I pray for his success all day every day.

[Swimmy]

clipper220 said:

I would not want to see such crap as meth legalized, as it is manufactured by less than savory people in less than sterile environments with less than stable ingredients, with all sorts of dangerous chemicals.

Buying street grade, homemade meth, can be equated to buying whiskey made in an outhouse with creek water. Not something one would want to have injected into their body, unless they are addicted and desperate.

If the drugs were legalized, the government could regulate and fine it into extinction. They could also tax exorbitant percentages on them.

I'm sorry to hear about your family member. I'm glad to hear that's been able to turn his life around. I wish him the best.

[nhcitizen18]

I also sympathize Clipper. I don't have any family or friends that have been addicted to that crap so I can't really begin to understand it. The question you really have to ask is this: Was the fact that it was illegal an impediment to his acquiring the drug or would he have gotten it whether or not it was illegal?

I suspect that as with most drug users, alcoholics, gambling addicts, nicotine addicts etc... the legality or illegality of their "fix" does not really stop them from getting it. As I said earlier if we want to keep people from abusing this stuff we need to find a way to make them want it less and thereby reduce demand. I am all for early education and treatment programs to address that issue.

An enormous amount of American treasure, time and blood has been spent attempting to stop the supply of drugs and all it has done is raise the street price of the drug. Higher street prices means more profit opportunity for those that can successfully grow/import it and sell it. Higher profit means more people will be willing to risk the consequences of the drug trade and try to "push out" their competitors. We all know what how these turf wars are resolved and it doesn't involve a judge or jury.

[Swimmy]

I would take that one step further and ask why they took that hit or sip of booze in the first place. Many did it for the thrill of doing something illegal. Perhaps if that thrill wasn't there many would not be addicted.

I don't have any studies to support it, but it would be worth looking into.

[jduges]

The legality of drugs has nothing to do with it's destructive properties and or the addictive nature of such substances. Alcohol is very legal and yet we have some who abuse it and others who do not. What we don't have, is kids getting killed on the streets over a 12 pack. We don't have jails filled with "bootleggers". We don't have all the wasted resources of an Alcohol task force. We don't have officers getting shot at and killed as they try to fight the war on Alcohol.

My lobby for the legalization of drugs has nothing to do with me wanting people to have free choice, nothing to do with making drugs more readily available, etc...etc... It has everything to do with taking the criminal element out of it which has proven to be a plague to this country and very much so in this area.

What people don't see, (or don't want to) is that you have a laundry list of issues that are solved or helped subsequent to reducing the criminal element. Gangs (while not started on the premise of drugs) will lose organization and necessity due to the fact that most major gangs are funded through a drug trade. What incentive is there for a kid to join and stay if there is no proverbial "pot of gold" at the end of that rainbow? Drugs could be made safer. Just as in the total alcohol content is regulated, you could regulate the THC content in marijuana, you could restrict and prohibit the use of certain substances. (ie chemicals used for making crystal meth). More importantly and I've said this before. You take the dealer out of the mix. The dealer is the gateway to stronger, more addictive drugs. Many people blame, marijuana which is unfair. The same guy who sells you your pot, also sells coke, crack, X, whatever, and all it takes is a free sample or a good price to hook someone on some nasty stuff. Legalization, removes that. Sure there will be places trying to sell or push the heavier stuff but it will be out in the open. You won't be fighting an invisible opponent.

Opponents to legalization cite moral reasons for not doing it. That legalizing it, gives permission to use or somehow says it's "okay" and not bad. Well, I don't smoke and I will strongly encourage my children not to, and that's legal. I do drink, but I'll teach and encourage my children to drink responsibily when they are older and Alcohol is legal. Bottom line is there is nothing I can definitely do that will guarantee that my kids won't become drug addicts. Ultimately it winds up being a personal choice that is made regardless of legality.

I just don't see the value in fighting a war we can't win. Senseless killings, billions of tax dollars being spent to incarcerate those involved in the drug trade. In fact it would generate a ridiculous amount of revenue for us, potentially making it so we wouldn't have to pay property, school, gas, etc...taxes.

The other thing I like is that it changes the landscape of our culture. Young kids today are being inundated with this notion of "get rich or die tryin" and that this lifestyle can be earned through the drug "game". I see young kids everyday who talk about wanting to drive phantoms, navis, H3's, evos etc.....they want to be "iced out" they want a "grille" they want a pad like they see on cribs. Given the impulsive nature and in many cases, the lack of determination, intelligence, and ability, these kids know they'll never obtain this lifestyle by going to school for upwards of 8-12 years post high school, to become a doctor or a lawyer. They know they aren't talented enought to be the next Lebron James, or the next Carrie Underwood. So what's the only way to get close to that lifestyle? That's right, start selling drugs. For many of us that sounds like a foreign idea, but many of the kids I work with, live it, they see it all around them from a very young age.

So it begins at age 8-10 when they are asked to bring a backpack from point A to point B where they get a couple of bucks and some protection but most important some respect or credibility. Then by age 13 they are selling weed, making runs, holding weapons for older adults (cause if they get caught, it's 11 months in a DFY as opposed to 10-15 years for the adult). Then by 15 they are making bank. Bringing in a couple hundred a week. By 16 they have a nice little whip that they can "pimp out". It's not uncommon for them to have some younger kids "working" for them. By 19 they are fully immersed. Making runs to NYC, heavy dealing, using weapons and living their dream. By 20-21, they are locked up doing a bid of 5-7 hoping to get out in 6 cause they'll only be 26, and they'll have earned their stripes so to speak. By 26 they're out and now working with the supplier and getting more "corporate". by 30 they are back in prison or dead. But that same 8 year old kid would take those 22 years of high living over 55 years of struggle, work, and suffering. Can you blame them?

I'd do the same thing if I was in that situation. Legalize drugs and they only way to "get rich or die trying" is gonna be to work your ass off for it. And I think we'd all agree that's a very good thing.

I'll now wait in anticipation of Jibaros' post about not wanting to go to hannefords and see crack sitting on a shelf next to the bud light.......

[clipper220]

The crack would most likely be behind the customer service desk with the pipe tobacco and snuff. The bud is still going to be found with the rest of the belly wash in the cooler area.

I wonder if they will be able to sell crack before 1 PM on sunday?

Seriously, you have some valid points to ponder Jduges. I was not on the forum yet when you originally made your statements about the legalization issues, but I have read some of your posts since. I would have to give the matter serious consideration before forming a stand on the issue.

As most know, I had my battles with alcohol when I returned from Viet Nam, and did a rehab in 1976. The issues surrounding addiction and dependency are many and deep. I would have to seriously weigh all the factors in making a statement either supporting or opposing legalization.

[jduges]

Your struggles with alcohol and your family member addiction only further prove the point.

You got your addiction from something that was legal while the family member from an illegal substance. So the legality of the substance has nothing to do with it's addictive properties or the propensity for it to be attained and used. Only difference is, no one probably died to help get you your drink of choice. While there was probably blood shed for you loved one's addiction.

Making it legal won't make it any more or less addictive. And to suggest that we'd have more junkies if it were legal is purely speculative and I've made a counter argument to that point before. Where as we'd beef up education and awareness, coupled with the fact that you wouldn't have dealers pushing the harder more detrimental stuff.

Our country is one cloaked in hypocrisy. Tobacco and Alcohol are legal while Marijuana is not. Either all should be illegal or all should be legal. The benefits gained by legalization outweighs the drawbacks (moral issue, and potentially more users).

It's one of those things, that the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

[clipper220]

The hypocracy of politicians to protect alcohol is a major frustration to me. I have to be nauseated when pot is looked upon with disdain, while congressmen and senators on state and federal levels defend their ability to drink their martinis and drunkeness.

I am not a bitter recovered drunk. I don't hold any animosity to a person who wants a beer or two. I simply am nauseated by lard assed idiots like Kennedy who have killed people with their drunkeness and gotten away with it. I hate the idea that the liquor lobby has enough money to soil our legislative bodies with corruption to support their causes. It is a case of " liberty and justice for themselves". The heck with the rest of us.

In all reality, ALL should be illegal, as opposed to being legal. I mean strictly from a health and welfare stand point. There would be fewer drunk driving deaths etc. But this is a democracy and the majority rules, and so far they have ruled in favor of sipping a beer and against smoking a bowl. Go figure!

Not everyone that drinks has a drinking problem. Not everyone that smokes a joint becomes a drug addict, but the dealers that deal the pot, also deal the harder drugs and promote their use. That is a sad fact. There is a serious chance of progression from one to the other in some cases.

[Ralph]

They also found a secret compartment full of cocaine in a car during a traffic stop a couple days ago.

And this doesn't take into account the stuff they find which doesn't make it into the paper, which is quite a bit.

[Swimmy]

clipper220 said:

In all reality, ALL should be illegal, as opposed to being legal. I mean strictly from a health and welfare stand point. There would be fewer drunk driving deaths etc.

I disagree. Remember when the U.S. had prohibition? Things got worse instead of better. Kennedy's father got rich of bootlegging, organized crime first solidified, etc.

The way to have fewer drunk driving deaths is to make drunk driving a felony. From there, amend the murder second degree statute to specifically include dwi's. After that, any time a drunk is arrested, he's charged with a felony. If that drunk kills someone, he's now on murder charges (minimum of 25-life). Some people think this is a little harsh. I think it's a little harsh when a dwi person kills another and walks away with only a few months to 2 yrs tops while the victim's family and friends cope with their loss of life.

But if Jduges had his way, I think he's right in the sense that you would take away the business from drug dealers. You'd have to worry about the addicts on the harder stuff. But your newbies might be less inclined to try them.