Property tax fix pondered

[dgriffin]

Property tax fix pondered in N.Y. Senate

Cara Matthews • Gannett Albany bureau • December 21, 2009


ALBANY — Discussions about how to make the property tax system more equitable in New York are well under way in the state Legislature.

As part of those efforts, a new state Senate report says legislation to limit property taxes based on ability to pay should be accompanied by measures to stem the proliferation of exemptions, establish a uniform compensation system for state-owned land and help local governments improve efficiency.

The report, which was released Friday, said it's important to help local governments improve their financial conditions so there is less pressure on the property-tax system.

That could include legislation that would spur consolidation of government services and operations. It would build on a government-consolidation law passed this year, said Senate Select Committee on Budget and Tax Reform Chairwoman Liz Krueger, D-Manhattan.

Other recommendations include:

Helping slow the expansion of property-tax exemptions by requiring lawmakers to include more detailed fiscal-impact notes with legislation.

The state Commission on Property Tax Relief in 2008 recommended a circuit-breaker program based on income and ability to pay, a cap on property-tax levies, and other changes.

The number and value of property-tax exemptions have grown along with rate of property taxes, the committee found. There were 1.2 million exemptions in 1997 and 4.6 million in 2008, a 292 percent increase. The total value of tax-exempt property ballooned from $317.7 billion in 1997 to $797.1 billion last year, the report said.



FULL ARTICLE AT:

www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009912210327


Note the staggering increase in exempt properties in New York over the past few years. I didn't know we were such a church-going people.

Also of interest in this work is the Property Tax "Circuit Breaker" provision, which provides limits to your property taxes based on income. According to nyspropertytaxreform.org, the provision would place caps on your property taxes. You would pay the full bill to your town and county, but then be reimbursed when filing a NY State Income return. The last set of numbers I saw from the NYSPropertyTaxReform looked good, especially for those on limited or fixed incomes, but the devil appears nightly in the details.

[corner]

we need to stop the tax exempt status of churchs and charities i know my church is sitting on a 3.5 million endowment not to mention generous donations

[dgriffin]

Yup, that's one of the problems. E.g., real estate investments, if owned by a church or charitable organization, qualify for exemption. Here in the Catskills, there's been a problem (Adirondacks, too) with large tracts of church owned property exempted from taxes.

Some states restrict exempt property to, for example, only the actual building and
immediate grounds of a church. Much better idea.

[Clipper]

The church wants one to pledge to tithe 10% of their gross income, and then they expect to be tax exempt. Along with that, they still cry poverty and expect special donations to do capital improvements etc. My first question would be if the church needs a new roof, why are you sending money to Bangladesh and Africa? Hows about we replace some of the gold and glitter with tupperware and anodized aluminum. Lower the thermostat, and let people keep their coat on. It will keep them awake for a change.

During the Viet Nam war everyone and their brother sent away for mail order ordination as a minister and become exempt clergy and conscientious objectors to avoid the draft. Now people want to form their little cliques into a "congregations" and little churches pop up all over with tax exempt property taken off the tax rolls.

I guess all I need to do is send away for a diploma from the mail order bible school, set up some folding chairs in my garage, hold a prayer service once a week, and my property becomes a "church" and is tax exempt. For all the government knows, I might run a whorehouse in that same garage the rest of the week, but it is a "church" so I am tax exempt.

[Ralph]

Hmmmm....... I'm an ordained member of the clergy, and I have a room devoted to meditation in my home.

Wonder if I can be tax exempt too? ;D

[Swimmy]

I know it's been established that Congress can spend on anything it wants to and that by granting exemptions to all religions across the board there is no constitutional violation per se. But isn't it still a defacto establishment of religion by granting such tax exemptions to religious establishments? I mean, if we're going to absolute separation of church and state, shouldn't they be paying taxes?

[dgriffin]

Interesting decision here:

tinyurl.com/yejqble

[Clipper]

I agree with Swimmy. If a church members want a big and luxurious building to worship in, and it is a major drain on their budget to maintain such a resource, let THEM pay for it. Their church takes up a space on the planet that could be producing property tax revenue if not for the exempt status. Tax them for the full assessed value of the property and let them figure out how they are going to raise the money, just like any other "business", and that is what many churches have become. Some churches have gotten to a point where they need a CEO instead of a pastor.

[rodwilson]

""Circuit Breaker" provision, which provides limits to your property taxes based on income"

Now this is ugly and I don't agree. If you can't afford the taxes on your property, perhaps you should own a property that you can afford. Again, another example of the "haves" covering the rest of the check for others. I truly don't get the attitude that if you haven't earned it, you're still entitled. Why do we continue to perpetrate the fraud of equality? In your respective God's eye perhaps but in the real world, NO.

I very much like the consolidation thing though. I think I read that Oneida county has over 315 local government entities. Most in NY. I'm generally a hands off guy but this IS clearly a county that needs political and operational oversight because the locals clearly lack the ability to get it done themselves.

The church issue is a great point. Another are the exemptions that are give to subsidize businesses such as...Wal-Mart.

I think cleaning up some of the mess that exists can go a long way without the need for new legislation. How about starting with what's already in the books?

The fact that 1/3 of the local payroll is government certainly doesn't help.

www.uticaod.com/news/x1679099586/Government-workers-compensation-one-third-of-total-for-region

[dgriffin]

Here's the problem, Rod. When my parents retired in 1974, property taxes were a nuisance bill and were probably increasing less than 2 % per year until they died in the late 1980's. Today in my own retirement, taxes are escalating at alarming rates. Mine have almost doubled since I retired from full time work in 2000. Each year my tax bill amounts to almost a FOURTH of the total price I bought the house for in 1977. Stated another way, every four years I pay the price of my house over again, this time in taxes. (And yes, I am properly assessed.) I 've worked most of my life and rebuilt and paid for this house, and keep the property up. But like my brother retirees, I am being forced to the wall by rising taxes. and an income that does not increase. I certainly didn't overbuy 33 years ago. I bought a ramshackle old farm house and, without loans, when we had the cash, fixed it up and made it into a handsome home. It's not in a yuppy neighborhood, with nearby resources amenable to the good life. It's on a country road. Sure, the market value has increased, but I cannot take advantage of that without selling my home of 33 years. (I have investigated Reverse Mortages and other schemes to withdraw equity, while advocating for a client who is in much worse shape than I. It would take too long to enumerate the negatives. Perhaps someone wants to start a separate thread.)

By the way, up until the state canceled the STAR Rebate Check program this year, calculations by the organization I cited in the above post showed that the cost of the Circuit Breaker program could be completely covered by the money the state spends (spent) on the rebate checks, which go to the rich and no so rich alike. That's the CHECK program, not the STAR or Enhanced STAR programs which provide the most benefit to residents.

[rodwilson]

I know Dave, I get it. The issue is not the people's fault but the governments and having to sell off properties is no answer. The ONLY answer is MASSIVE downsizing of government. Even big business understands this. The government ignores it. Only until complete collapse will EFFECTIVE change start to happen. I truly feel and believe that the US economy will completely collapse then we'll see what's left. ALL of the "great" empires have fallen. Our time is coming without significant change. It's time to find a balance and right the ship. The way we live and conduct business here is simply unsustainable. It won't be too long before countries start telling us NO. We can only borrow so much.

There was someone that you referred to who stated something to the effect that real change was brought about by capitalists and entrepreneurs then followed by government. I agree and I participate in and follow this movement of "Social Entrepreneurs" for this reason. But everybody has to participate. It really is about daily actions and choices. TOO many don't understand the implications of their own actions and it can greatly attributed to the actions of government and big business. When I have a few months to spare, I'll start a thread on the cycle of where we are and why we're stuck here. It's really simple stuff, same stuff I've been talking about. And I'm not just making it up, it's real stuff. Good, solid stuff by economists, strategists, medical professionals who all get it and see it. The hurdle is that it's in conflict with what people have been fed for years by big business and by the government. The government hasn't been about people in a LONG time.

Seriously, if you haven't seen it, see Food Inc. It's not about grossing you out (but it will). It's about how a small handful of companies dominate the food system of the US pushing for legislation that is about profits and not people's health. Everybody talks about heart disease and obesity and their costs on health care. Guess what? Food policy in the US is designed to get you sick. Beef cattle being fed grain completely changes the product that you put in your body. Grass fed beef is healthy for you, commercial beef is not. So the USDA tells you stay away from beef. Problem is is that the policy to suggest reduced beef intake is based on the makeup of commercial beef and they try to steer the blame toward saturated fats vs. the beef itself. The amount of saturated fat in grass fed beef is about the same as in lean chicken. Big meat producers actually put the unhealthy fats in beef while destfroying other healthy fats, fatty acids and vitamins. Saturated fats aren't what causes obesity, it's the sugars made from corn products. The corn and grain they're fed is subsidized by US taxpayers and sold to food manufacturers @ a low price so they can make cheap food that in turn is killing us. Then on the other end, our health care system is overwhelmed because big business and the government continue to set and support policy for and about people. Michael Pollan states that there is no "cheap food". You might pay less for it at the counter but you're going to make it up in quality of life or in health care costs. So in short...we pay taxes to subsidize the cost of corn and soy to food producers. Then we buy their products, they make a nice profit. Then as the healths of America falters we pay again on the health care front. So for those that choose to hit up Wal-Mart, you're actually paying way more for food that those that support local farming (except for the fact that out tax dollars still go into this system). See the film. Food Inc and Fresh! It's estimated that almost 80% of food products in a grocery store contain such corn and soy based ingredients.

And while this might seem a little off topic, remember that almost 87% of property taxes in Onida county go to Medicaid costs. While I don't have the numbers handy, the figures of medicaid spending on heart disease and obesity related illness is staggering. It's estimated that 75% of health care costs are preventable. Maybe we should start there.

[denise]

We've shopped for houses in Oklahoma in the same price range ($225K) we've looked at here in NNY. Taxes in OK are generally half of what we'd pay if we opt to stay in NY. My husband and I are in our mid-40's, and when we consider our income, we take retirement into consideration. NYS is just not a retirement friendly place if you wish to own property after retirement.

[Ralph]

Dec 25, 2009 12:14:03 GMT -5 denise said:

NYS is just not a retirement friendly place if you wish to own property after retirement.

NYS is not a friendly place if you plan on owning most anything!

[denise]

Very true, Ralph!

[gski]

Taxes, taxes and more taxes. Sense a theme here?

Each year we see more in school taxes, state and local taxes, county etc etc etc. Another theme here.

Having worked for a rather large "not for profit" in the Utica area many many years ago, I was astonished to see what happened at year end. Spend it all. If you don't, you won't get the same or more next year.

It seems that the only place that this type of ideal works is in government and the "not for profits", of which, both continue to grow each year in some way, shape or form.

Plain and simple, it needs to stop. This is a Merry-go-Round that needs to have the plug pullled on it. What happens instead, another horse gets added and it continues to get more riders.

I feel sorry for those who cannot provide for themselves, through no fault of their own, that's who the government programs are designed for, however to the rest of the freeloaders, the ride has to stop!

Each year the Medicaid bill keeps getting larger and larger, more Federal mandates, which get passed onto ourselves. No more. It's time that government get their hands our of our wallets and pockets, searching for the last coin they can find.

Vote them all out and start over, it can't be any worse can it?