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Post by JGRobinson on Dec 23, 2011 5:26:37 GMT -5
Yup, Im with Dave, I also know that certain garb is relative to religions and lifestyles but again, I dont know of any 60 Year old white ladies that have blown up airplanes, Boats, Buses or Trains with their bodies and a bomb so they will not likely be on my radar (that could change, Terrorists change tactics as quickly as we discover their techniques of destroying us)! That just doesnt happen here or in the Middle East, yet.
The Amish and Menonites have really taken hold in this area. Buying up entire chunks of towns and starting their own communities inside ours. That hasn't always been greeted with happiness by the locals. At first, most saw it as an occupation! Their farms and lands are well kept, they work all the time and their "odd" religious beliefs have not negatively effected our culture, they have assimilated, not just told us to change because they are here now. Time has mended most fences and they now are become one with us and the region not foreigners or strangers, good neighbors. They did have a sect that had a mad cult of beard-whackers running around demasculating other Amishes but they have been stopped now and nobody died as a result!
So, as other cultures move into our Homelands, we must maintain due diligence. The Russians, Bosnians and Jamaicans all brought diversity to the Utica, mostly good but some not so good! We had to send law enforcement to their homelands to learn of the underworld influences they may have brought with them to root them out here before they become intrenched like the Italian Mob in the early prohibition days.
Religion practiced in line with our Constitutional rights should not just be allowed, it should be encouraged. Dont expect tacit approval of those we have yet to meet and understand, timenot mandates will teach us who is an American and who is not.
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Post by firstamendment on Dec 23, 2011 10:11:19 GMT -5
There are Muslim factions who hate us. But at the same time there are factions of natural born US citizens who also hate us. There are groups the FBI tracks all the time, militia groups, KKK, etc. There are many home grown terror groups that nobody hears about because in this post 9/11 world, the buzz word is Muslim.
The key word there is "factions". That being a fraction of an entire group. Making assumptions or drawing fears based on the actions of the factions and applying it to the entire group is exactly the reason why we had Japanese, German and Italian interment here. Exactly the reason.
I fully agree with JG's statement "Its all about the person in my eyes, their words and their deeds comprise the sum of their existence.'' I would rather live in a neighborhood of peaceful Muslims than a neighborhood of Christian criminals any day.
See, America was always supposed to be where people of differences can all come to live in peace. I am not naive to think everyone who comes here has good intentions. Some do not and I leave the job of finding them to the proper authorities.
Just a suspicion but it seems very plausible that Muslim Americans are not more vocal about denouncing Islamic extremists for fear of reprisals within. I would also like to see a more adamant stand against it from them as you, Dave. To be honest, it would be to their benefit to help extinguish Radicalism because then it gives the public a much better view of who is with us and who is not. If Muslim Americans, and Muslims in general don't want to be painted with the same broad brush the color of Extremism, they need to play an active role in separating themselves from it.
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Post by JGRobinson on Dec 28, 2011 7:33:14 GMT -5
My Nephew and his new wife stopped by for a visit yesterday and she's a Moroccan Muslim. Her family is traditional yet I found it odd that she wasnt very familiar with the term Sharia Law, she had heard of it but was not taught that it was her law. They do not hide behind veils, force their women into sevatude or practice any of the less than human practices that we are rightfully offended by.
You would not likely even know she was Muslim if you didn't ask her, much like most of the Christians I know that dont often wear our beliefs on our foreheads. Its not that we dont always believe, we just are part of a modern day world that dress and normal interactions dont always include presenting our core beliefs aurly or in dress just because.
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Post by virgilgal on Dec 28, 2011 21:56:16 GMT -5
Just as I was saying.... Just sayin'...
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Post by firstamendment on Dec 29, 2011 10:14:12 GMT -5
My Nephew and his new wife stopped by for a visit yesterday and she's a Moroccan Muslim. Her family is traditional yet I found it odd that she wasnt very familiar with the term Sharia Law, she had heard of it but was not taught that it was her law. They do not hide behind veils, force their women into sevatude or practice any of the less than human practices that we are rightfully offended by. You would not likely even know she was Muslim if you didn't ask her, much like most of the Christians I know that dont often wear our beliefs on our foreheads. Its not that we dont always believe, we just are part of a modern day world that dress and normal interactions dont always include presenting our core beliefs aurly or in dress just because. And that just goes to show not all Muslims are bad people or have ill will toward others. I am not entirely familiar with different customs and factions of Islam, but I'd suspect she is probably more progressive than some of the radical or devout Muslims. Given her attire, you didn't even know she was a Muslim, therefore it further solidifies what I've stated. You can't always go on appearance alone. there are plenty of wolves in sheep's clothing but there are probably plenty of sheep in wolves clothing as well. I won't lie or pretend to be naive. It is human nature to feel awkward or uncomfortable around others who are different. I am no different in that regard. I understand what some have said, about having some reservations of others fitting certain profiles. Human nature after all. What I take issue with are those, not necessarily anyone here who has expressed views on this, who automatically take a prejudicial stance against an entire group. Some Muslims are terrorists therefore all Muslims are bad. Some Catholic priests molest kids therefore all Catholic priests are pedophiles. Some Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor therefore all Japanese are sleeper cells. Some Italians are in the mafia therefore all Italians are mobsters. And on and on and on..... You can find factions of bad people in all walks of life, in all different ethnic, socio, religious, racial, et al groups. Labeling the entire group based on the evils of the few helps to spur on further hatred and does no good. Eventually, that continued hatred for the entire group can lead to more of that group heading down the path of wrong, thereby satisfying a person's predetermined outcome as true.
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Post by JGRobinson on Dec 29, 2011 10:55:21 GMT -5
Yup, I agree! My opinion of my niece in-law and her family truly could have turned on a dime according to what I heard her say or direct observations of any anti American Social tendencies. She volunteered the topic that she was Muslim and talked a bit about her general agreement with Muslim philosophy. My next question was, " What is your opinion of Sharia Law"? She said she wasn't really acquainted well with the term or any influence it may have on her practice of Islam. I described the degrading, humiliating and viscous applications of it to her and she said, thats not us, we dont believe any of that.
I dont like classifications and categories when it comes to human understanding per se, they are so hard to quantify or qualify. You cant tell a book by its cover unless the author explicitly wants you to know what the contents are upfront visually and in words. Thats where I get my first opinions and they are often very accurate as long as I dont predispose myself to subversive, political or religious supposition too much! The more I observe someone, the greater my chances are of knowing, not guessing who you are and what be your intentions. Then I get my Judgment pen out of the safe and call a spade a spade, good, bad or indifferent!
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Post by dgriffin on Dec 29, 2011 17:31:08 GMT -5
I can't say I know much about the Muslim civil culture, but I am impressed with the Muslim religious culture and at one time read a devotional regularly, "The Bounty of Allah," by Aneela Khalid Arshed. The reflections from the Qur'an were quite beautiful. (Needless to say, there were no quotations about murdering people for God, just as you won't find those same type of quotations from the Bible in a Christian devotional.) I was led to read the prayers from the Muslim holy book after conversations with a American fellow who had converted to the Muslim faith in prison. Prison conversions to the Muslim tradition are suspect to many, but the man always appeared sincere to me and he was no longer incarcerated. In fact, he had been out of prison for possibly ten years when I knew him as an acquaintance. He was white, by the way.
I would be interested in whether people on the forum feel we should be on guard against Muslim extremists, which are a very real threat in my opinion. Do you feel what America is doing today is too stereotypical or rife with profiling? Is that a good or bad method of protection? Should we assume we're safe because most Muslims are probably peace loving, although they seldom express solidarity with the rest of us when a terrorist attempts to kill some of us? Other than as we discussed, trying to "judge" each person by his actions, how do we balance openness to other religions with prudence?
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Post by firstamendment on Dec 29, 2011 18:27:21 GMT -5
Profling and stereotypes typically are the wrong course of action for a lot of reasons. Even today, many years displaced from the Civil Rights movement, it is not uncommon for someone to blame a crime on "some black guy who took off running". there was a case years ago with a guy who shot and killed his pregnant wife sitting the passenger seat and shot himself, not fatally, and blamed it on some mysterious black men who tried to rob them. Turns out, as you might remember, it was the husband who staged the entire thing.
Stereotyping places an unfair stigma on people. And profiling simply puts an unfair suspicion on those people as well. It is debatable whether profiling actually makes us any safer to be honest. Sometimes lost in that profiling is the ability to stay objective rather than subjective. Objectivity requires one not to come to hasty conclusions and make assumptions. And to be quite honest, by its very nature profiling IS subjective since it makes assumptions based on certain criteria.
I see it like this. Barring any imminent threat, why pick fights with someone simply because they are different?
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Post by virgilgal on Dec 30, 2011 16:26:49 GMT -5
Agreed, FA. I think fear and bias are often taught, either when we are young or perhaps through other experiences later in life. When we were growing up our home was like the United Nations. My father had college friends from Mexico and the Middle East who were often at our home. Another friend was responsible for organizing a picnic for all the members of the Anthropological Society at S.U. and we held it for 2 days at our home for several years. We had people from about 40 nations who came. Many wore "native" dress and brought food from their cultures. Many languages were spoken. Our neighbors from farms around us came and mingled. It just seemed very natural and normal to me for many years until I eventually realized that many people did not live with that diversity. Of all the people I have known from many backgrounds and cultures I have never known of anyone who was a terrorist or had hidden agendas! I can still feel discomfort in certain circumstances because they are new to me; mostly that would involve something in a city where I'm not comfortable. I have a lot of friends who are black and have lived some of their terrible experiences with racism. I've seen all eyes in a club turn on the black face with looks that made us all turn around and leave. I was sitting at a bar one day waiting for my friend Mary to join me for a beer before we went to my daughters concert at school. As she was walking up the steps someone said "! Here comes Aunt Jemima!" I almost threw up and convinced her to leave before we had that beer w/o telling her why. I have seen her hurt to the core many times by comments like that.
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Post by dgriffin on Dec 30, 2011 20:29:46 GMT -5
FA, I wasn't thinking of stereotyping in that sense, as practiced privately when encountering people from different cultures. Vgal is right, we often feel a certain amount of discomfort with anything or anyone different, but most of us (hopefully) overcome that and consciously try to step out in welcome and kindness. Anything less is really a form of prejudice.
But I was speaking of police techniques when I used the word profiling. For example, if the police have information that a terrorist act is about to be committed on Genesee Street some afternoon and the police begin to stop and question people who appear suspicious, do you think they should stop Muslims and an equal amount of Irishmen so as to not be unfair?
And from a social grouping point of view, if major ethnic groups are legally immigrating into the United States and one of them has a higher incidence of terrorist acts and fundamentalist leaders who preach the murder of non-Muslims, do you think we should step up surveillance of Muslims or watch them only as closely as we watch Haitians or visiting Canadians? Or should we back off, watch no one and let the chips fall where they may.
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Post by Clipper on Jan 2, 2012 12:25:50 GMT -5
I was just reading of the fire bomb attacks that took place in NYC over the weekend. The perpetrators targeted a convenience store (I imagine it was run by someone from the middle east) a home where Hindu services are held, and a Mosque. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45845535/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/#.TwHbHYGuGuIOne person left the following comment at the bottom of the page. "Religion is the source of most evil (not all, but close). Just pick up a history book and look at the wars, crusades, inquisitions, human sacrifices. Next to religion stands racial hatred. Then politics. Can't wait for the 2012 presidential election and all the negative / racial advertisements."Makes me almost thankful that I don't subscribe to any particular religion and don't take race into consideration in defining people in my everyday life. I don't have to defend a specific doctrine or pick up a sword to defend Catholicism against Methodism, or the Presbyterian beliefs against those beliefs of the Southern Baptists. Nor am I caught up with separating or categorizing friends and acquaintances by black, yellow, red or white. ( now if I can just get over the hump and move beyond the liberal vs conservative thing, rofl ) It is a simple and relatively peaceful life, having learned of a "higher power" many years ago in a 12 step program. I simply believe in that power greater than myself, a supreme being, or creator, and to me it makes no difference whether an individual calls that being God, Allah, Buddha, or Bubba the Big Guy in the Sky. Is it not ironic that religion as a concept brings to mind, peace, unity, and a serene existence, while in reality, religion is at the base of much of the worlds violence and evil doing? Is it not rather petty and pitiful when the color of one's skin is reason for disdain and hatred? One has to think that God played a bad joke on the world when he created religion and race. He probably sits in his "heaven" or wherever he abides, and shakes his head, while saying " what's with the racism and religious violence. I created you all equal, ya dumbasses." Personally I find the words "religious doctrine" to be a dangerous and divisive term. Why not simplify the issues and define God as the dictionary does. "1. The sole Supreme Being, eternal, spiritual, and transcendent, who is the Creator and ruler of all and is infinite in all attributes; the object of worship in monotheistic religions." The world could become "one world, under God", and religious beliefs in government would be simplified and defused world wide.
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Post by firstamendment on Jan 2, 2012 14:44:47 GMT -5
Religion, per se, isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is when it gets taken to the extreme is when bad things happen. David Koresh, Jim Jones and others like them. Extremism. Honestly, its not necessarily a problem with religion. It is a problem with human behavior where religion is the means to an ends. What gets lost in the extremism is respect and decency for fellow man, even if they are different, believe in something different, etc..
For quite a many years, I found that same point of view, Clip, about the hypocracy of religions being about peace all the while showing otherwise. It is not limitted to any particular faith.
I know what you are talking about with the higher power and the 12 steps that you speak of. they don't promote religion, at least not an organized religion in 12 step and other rehab related groups. Having a belief in a higher power gives a person a sense of humility, that there is something much bigger than themselves out there that they have no control over. It is a very simple concept that does not need to be made more complex than it needs to be. I have a pretty good book in my nightstand, "Everything Changes; Help for Families of Newly Recovering Addicts" by Beverly Conyers. I never got around to reading the entire thing, but much of what I did read made a lot of sense while someone close to me had been in recovery. That person is is 2 years and month clean now. A Higher power doesn't need to have a name or a following to mean something. Each individual person, addict or not, can benefit from this, as I am quite sure you are aware.
I was raised Roman Catholic, so it is what I feel comfortable with. It does not, however, dictate every aspect of my life nor do I completely agree with every facet of Catholicism. I have kept to the belief and philosophy that what I believe in is for me, and is not necessarily what others will or do. Therefore, it is not for me to profess my beliefs on others and maintain respect for others who differ. If God exists, in the Catholic sense, should I believe that a Muslim, for example, would not go to Heaven who lived a peaceful life, simply because they believed in a higher power of a different name? I don't believe that for a second. Matter of fact, I think it might even be written in the Bible that others can get to heaven. I am inclined to believe that a place called Heaven would be open to those who are judged on the merits of their life not on the particular religion they subscribed to.
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Post by firstamendment on Jan 2, 2012 14:56:49 GMT -5
Profiling in the sense you put it, Dave, is based on specific invididuals and information for something deemed credible. I do not find anything wrong or malignant in that and acting accordingly. What I meant in terms of profiling was in a more general sense. Something like seeing a guy looking Middle Eastern on a plane and thinking he's got a shoe bomb or something. From an average individual, that is stereotyping. But when officials start using a general appearance like that as just reason to search this individual, that is the profiling I take issue with. It is no longer objective, but subjective. An assumption is made that a man of Middle Eastern descent (or appears to be) could be a threat and should be stopped and searched. That seems about as un-American as it gets. Profiling based on a general appearance is out and out another form of racism, where race isn't necessarily the basis for hatred and prejudice.
If you take that same scenario and authorities have this same passenger who closely resembles a known terrorist, now we are talking more specific than a general sense of appearance. They have specific information about a specific person to look for and not every Middle Eastern man is going to fit that image. That type of profiling is looking for a specific individual, not a broad scope of people all fitting a general image.
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Post by Clipper on Jan 2, 2012 15:21:16 GMT -5
Religion has been described as both socialogical and psychological in nature. the socialogical aspect being that it draws people of like belief together in unity. That is where theology is the basis for the beliefs. The psychological aspect was once described by Freud as a type of neurosis. With that in mind, I simply keep my belief in a creator and higher power at a personal level, and don't try to impose my beliefs on anyone else. I read scripture, hold basic Christian based beliefs, and on the psychological side, I am probably more neurotic than I would like to admit, ROFL. For me, it has been about reading, listening to others much wiser than myself, and forming my own opinion, and my own relationship with that "higher power." For me it is about me, my God, and prayer. No extravagant place of worship, no mortal with a theological background and personal opinion of how God wants ME to lead my life, and no tithing to support such a theocracy. My God is real to me. My Lord is Jesus Christ, but that doesn't make it necessary for you to believe the same as I do to achieve "salvation" or to go to heaven, if you believe there is such a place or such a level of achievement.
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Post by Clipper on Jan 2, 2012 15:32:48 GMT -5
In reference to the remarks about profiling, I have been subjected to profiling back when I worked nights at the OD. It doesn't have to be by religion or race. Simply being part of a demographic that is out of place in any particular area at any particular time is all that is necessary to set off alarms with law enforcement. I would sometimes take my own pickup and drive around the city in the middle of the night if I suspected that drivers were goofing off or not getting the bundles delivered in a timely manner. A couple of times I was stopped in Corn Hill and West Utica and shook down by the UPD. One cop told me that to be in Cornhill that time of night with a shiny late model pickup and a white face was normally only to buy drugs or pick up a whore. I was stopped on James St. about two in the morning. James was a place where prostitution was a problem at the time. On one occasion I was sitting in my truck on a side street waiting for a driver to service a newspaper rack (vending machine) because he had not been putting the correct amount of papers in, and had not been taking the old one's out. A cop pulled up, got me out of the truck, frisked me for weapons, questioned me, actually put cuffs on me, put me in the patrol car while he called my assistant manager on the loading dock to confirm my story as to who I was and what I was doing sitting on Walnut St in the dark. Turns out there was a house nearby that was known for dealing drugs.
Seems that simply being a white face, late at night, in a predominately black neighborhood, or driving a decent vehicle and being parked in a drug ridden neighborhood in the middle of the night is reason for suspicion in today's world.
Fortunately most of the UPD got to know us and would stop by for a paper at night and patrol our area regularly. The back loading area of the OD is not a real visible place and once the trucks were loaded and out of there, it was just myself and my assistant manager for periods of time, in a vulnerable place to be robbed or assaulted by some of the unsavory characters that hung downtown at night.
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