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Post by dgriffin on Dec 20, 2011 19:37:30 GMT -5
FA, you may misunderstand the intent of my post, which was not foment hate against Muslims, but rather to answer Vgal's post complaining that a person who wrote to express his concern about our freedoms under attack was the "Craziest stuff I've ever heard or read personally!" Concern's opinions may be misguided, but his fears are not the craziest thing I ever heard. It is certainly your prerogative to not worry about anything you don't want to worry about. It is mine to advise vigilance. It should not be mistaken for hate.
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Post by firstamendment on Dec 20, 2011 20:07:53 GMT -5
I did not view your post as advocating or espousing hate. I was speaking in the general sense and not directed at anyone in particular. It seems many have this fear and/or hatred for Muslims which may be unfounded or misdirected.
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Post by chris on Dec 20, 2011 20:53:47 GMT -5
FA...I have always seen a priests face and a nuns face and they both have their hands out in the open. mater of fact most nuns today wear a white blouse and a black skirt and if a head dress then you still see their hair/head.
I am referring to a person that came into the laundry one day and was completely garbed in black. All you could see were eyes cause her face was covered by a veil. It took a long time to realize she was on a phone talking. it was at that point I felt like ....sh$$$ she could have had a gun pointed right at me for all I knew so there was no way I would even be able to defend myself. It creeped me out and made me feel very unsafe and I will never get rid of that feeling.
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Post by firstamendment on Dec 21, 2011 13:47:40 GMT -5
Back when nuns wore full habit, you couldn't completely see them. In any event, dismissing them since they are clergy would also be a false sense of security, wouldn't it? I mean, decades later we found out about all those molesting priests. What's to say one wasn't masturbating under his vestments while facing you?
Why would you or should you be in fear of some stranger in the laundry room simply they are covered in a burka? Realistically, a person could claim the same fears from a person in the winter dressed in a full snow suit with a ski mask.
We are getting into areas here where even apparel divides us. Really? Perhaps we should all go naked that way we can see exactly what each person is or is not doing.
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Post by Clipper on Dec 21, 2011 15:23:48 GMT -5
I encountered nuns at St Pauls years ago that I feared much more than I fear the average Muslim woman on the street. They were much meaner and didn't even try to conceal their weapons. A ruler and a pointer were openly displayed and utilized in inflicting pain on small children. It was traumatizing I tell ya!
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Post by chris on Dec 21, 2011 19:56:27 GMT -5
FA as I stated before the only thing visible was the persons eyes. I am not changing what I don't like no matter what anyone thinks. If you want to like a muslim fine that is your perogative and when they blow up the next twin towers lets see how much you will still defend them. I am not arguing this point any further.
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Post by firstamendment on Dec 22, 2011 11:09:53 GMT -5
It is not that I want to like a Muslim. It is simply a matter of having no reason NOT to like one. You are taking the view that because some Muslims brought down buildings that ALL Muslims might. Gee, I've been mugged by blacks in the past so perhaps I might be mugged by ANY blacks in the future. It is a foolish notion to paint an entire population with the same brush simply on the basis of what a few have done. Its like saying ALL Catholic priests have pedophilia tendencies because there are some pedophile priests out there.
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Post by Clipper on Dec 22, 2011 12:41:27 GMT -5
Stereotyping, profiling, and paranoia can be dangerous. Since 9/11 many people have been wrongfully mistreated and mistaken for Muslim extremists. A local convenience store owner near our house has been subjected to vandalism, verbal abuse, and threats, and he isn't even a Muslim. He is Sikh or Hindu, from India. He simply is dark complected and speaks with a slight accent.
Over the years we have had sleeper cells of many different unsavory groups. Nazi's, communists, and others have formed anti American groups that were a threat to our safety. they didn't wear burkas or robes and we didn't even know they were among us. Even today, we have militias and groups like the KKK still active in parts of the country. I would be more wary of someone that is a skinhead or a member of one of those groups than I would be of a Muslim housewife in a burka and veil.
Recently I was sitting on a bench waiting for Kathy at our local Walmart store. A huge black man, dressed like a gangster rap star, hat on sideways, pants drooping, a face like a boxer and a frightening scowl on his face sat down beside me. He had two small bicycles and a couple of bags with him. I said, "someone has a good daddy and is going to have a great Christmas surprise." He said "no sir,these are for my church. I save cans all year at work and cash them in at this time of year, and I put my change in a jar every night to buy toys for my church to give to needy children. I am not married and don't have any children of my own." This big hulk of a man was actually very soft spoken and a gentle giant, but if you saw him coming toward you on a dark street, you would probably cross the street to the other side. Stereotyping is simply unwarranted in most cases. When I was leaving, I wished him a merry Christmas, and he said "the same to you and God bless you brother."
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Post by firstamendment on Dec 22, 2011 12:57:34 GMT -5
Clipper, are you old enough for WWII or heard stories from then? What did they do with Japanese Americans and people of Asian descent that were thought to be Japanese? That is what happens with stereotyping and mass panic from profiling.
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Post by Clipper on Dec 22, 2011 13:33:37 GMT -5
I am fairly well acquainted with stories of internment during the second world war.
My mom and dad had friends of both Japanese and German origin while I was growing up. The Japanese couple had been confined in a camp outside of Phoenix Arizona for a couple of years. I guess it was hot, crowded, and they worked hard to simply survive. He had an engineering degree and worked for the army at the time, and they still put them in a camp.
The German couple had met while in a camp here in Tennessee. The surprising part of THAT story is that the camp they were held in was originally for Italian "enemy aliens."
Some Italians were interned in camps at times in history also.
Italians in those days migrated in droves. Most became citizens, but those that did not seek citizenship, or legal status in the allotted time were declared "enemy aliens" when the war broke out. There were some Italians that were self proclaimed facists and they were interned in camps too.
These actions were taken under "the alien enemies act of 1798."
Being the prolific reader that I have always been, when I heard the story from those couples, I immediately started reading the history surrounding the practice. I haven't tried looking at the practice since I have had a computer until today, but I imagine if you google internment camps, there is a lot of good informative reading to be had on the subject. You have now fueled my curiosity, and I will be off on a mission to read more about the subject. lol.
People have suggested putting illegal Mexican aliens in camps, but that idea is ridiculous. We are not at war with Mexico, and to intern people in camps is simply been found to be paranoia at it's worst.
This is America. We learn from past mistakes. Many upstanding and innocent people were gathered up and herded like sheep into camps with barbed wire and wooden bunks. Thank goodness we haven't resorted to doing that with Muslims as of yet, and I emphasize the "as of yet."
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Post by firstamendment on Dec 22, 2011 15:14:34 GMT -5
Interesting on how the Land of the Free isn't always the case for some of it's citizens.
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Post by Clipper on Dec 22, 2011 15:45:52 GMT -5
Boy no truer statement was ever made FA. Our country freed the slaves in 1865 with the passage of the thirteenth amendment, and yet today there are still whites that treat black people as less than equal and less than worthy of equal respect. How many times have we heard folks suggest that we put THOSE people all on a boat and send them back to Africa, even though most of them come from many generations of American born ancestors? I recently had the pleasure of telling a Greek acquaintance who was belittling blacks and suggesting they go back to Africa that the black person he was berating probably could trace his lineage as American back to the 1700's, while the Greek I was talking to would have to admit that his family was picking olives in Greece well into the 1930's. I take great pleasure in making an ass of a bigot, anywhere, anytime. Puts a smile on my face every time.
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Post by JGRobinson on Dec 22, 2011 16:04:13 GMT -5
Its all about the person in my eyes, their words and their deeds comprise the sum of their existence. Right now, Muslims in garb are the target of our fears. Its not entirely coincidental that we relate the dress with Terrorism. Most Americans dont know any practicing Muslims, all we see is the Horrific images of Radical Extremist Muslims beheading journalists, strapping bombs to their backside and blowing themselves and innocent others to smithereens.
Those images of Osama Bin Laden, Zawaheri and other suicide bombers in full dress with Machine guns spraying do cloud the vision of those unacquainted with the diversity good and bad of a generally foreign population.
I try not to judge based on how someone looks or dresses but I wont overlook the fact that profiling is useful as long as your hypothesis isnt drawn from speculation and generalization. If it looks, act and Quacks like a Duck, its probably a duck.
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Post by virgilgal on Dec 22, 2011 20:17:45 GMT -5
www.c-span.org/Events/Oral-Histories-Senator-Daniel-Inouye--Densho-Japanese-American-Legacy-Project/10737426106/I think this was the radio interview I heard last week with Senator Inouye of Hawaii. It was amazing. Appearances can have varying degrees of appearance, JGR... Many Mormons wear a certain type of undergarment; you wouldn't normally see that reflection of their religious adherence. Amish and Mennonites are pretty visible as are Muslims who observe their religious and/or cultural traditions in that way. In the case of the Japanese during WWII; any Asian was suspect...and suffered similarly in many cases.
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Post by dgriffin on Dec 22, 2011 23:53:31 GMT -5
It does seem odd to me that with examples before us of our country's past abridgement of freedoms of various groups ... the Japanese, Muslims, Jews, etc. ... that anyone would use that as a reason to diminish the importance of vigilance toward a group that has publicly stated their intention to do the same to us and more, and has sponsored terrorist acts against us. And yet I'm surprised to see some Americans wanting to assume the best and accusing those who don't of assuming the worst.
Yes, many Muslims, probably the majority of them, are quite nice people. But there are Muslim factions who have announced their hatred of us. And these are the same groups who force their women into Burkas and cause them to suffer even more despicable degradations. You can call it religion if you want. I call it evil. Unless you think these people are kidding, I believe such behavior should inspire some degree of fear and certainly indignation. At the very least, I would think that to most Americans, that brand of Muslim has by now worn out his welcome in America. It isn't a matter of colorful clothing and spicy foods. If someone moves into my neighborhood and wants to pretend they live in a medieval society, I'll humor them until they insist I do the same.
So how do we honor another group's culture without accepting the evil of many of their leaders. How I do it is to judge each person individually as I welcome them into our midst. I respect their legal right to be here and I attempt to welcome them as I would any new neighbor. I have sampled their food, been their guest and returned the favor. The few I know I indeed like. But let's not kid ourselves. Of course I'm prejudiced. I have ample reason to be circumspect of groups who are trying to blow up airplanes with my friends on them. Unless that's just a rumor. And I resent the great swath of Muslim America that has no comment when it happens.
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