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Post by gski on Nov 16, 2009 11:34:12 GMT -5
corner, I believe you are correct at the deflection angle. Not only that, but because this will be a "civil" court and not a military court, where it belongs, all the "classified" details can come to light without any problems. My opinion is that it's a way to get rid of the military tribunals and to now give these pieces of garbage the same "rights" as americans. It's a joke!
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Post by concerned on Nov 16, 2009 11:45:12 GMT -5
I just wonder why it has taken so long for them to be brought to trial and what implications that has on them having a fair and impartial trial.
I know what they did was horible but when they are found quilty( I doubt that there a potential jurists in NY that are not prejudiced against these people and thus not able to be juriors) I pray they are not given the Death Penality. That just continue's the circle of violence by falsely making us believe that we are somehow judges of live and death. What vindication do we the American people receive by putting to death those who do us physical, spiritual or psychological harm. I am sure that this trial is going to have a negative impact on all of Islam and the Media are are just waiting with baited breath. A 300 year sentence without the chance for parole while being help in a max. federal prison. I am thinking of the one in Texas.
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Post by Clipper on Nov 16, 2009 12:17:44 GMT -5
The ongoing campaign by the Obama administration to discredit the republicans and specifically George Bush, is becoming the same old shit, different day.
Is it not time to quit spending his days trying to "undo" the Bush agenda, and to start to "do" what he promised to do in his message of "change"?
All I see him doing is flitting about hit and miss, making his agenda no more than photo ops and bullshit attempts at misguided diplomacy with those that don't know the meaning of the word.
His stimulus plan is going to result in our speaking chinese before he is done with it. The way I look at it, if government bails out the banks and ends up with partial ownership, then why would China not be ulitimately "owning" us by bailing us out with their loans and financing of Obama's programs.
Personally I don't see the sense in spending billions of dollars, borrowed from another country, to "stimulate" OUR economy. I see it stimulating the CHINESE economy more than it does our own.
How the hell is doubling or tripling the national debt going to have a positive effect on the lives of Americans, either today, or in generations to come, while THEY pay for the piss poor judgment of today's self serving administration?
Obama needs to step back and look again for a location to hold these trials. There is NO concrete and justifiable reason to bring those people to NY City to try them. There are plenty of less vulnerable and more remotely located small federal court houses across the country, where these animals could be tried with better security and without risking the lives of those already affected by the 9/11 attacks, in a major population center.
There is NO reason for this EXCEPT for Obama's desire to spit in the eye of Guiliani and Bush,and to pee on the graves of those poor souls lost in the 9/11 attacks. It is nothing short of despicable.
If he wants to cater to terrorists why doesn't he simply put them up in the Blair House and have them to dinner at the White House? Damn!
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Post by corner on Nov 16, 2009 13:41:01 GMT -5
he probably already has
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Post by bobbbiez on Nov 16, 2009 15:47:44 GMT -5
 Swimmy, I need your attorneys input on this. I've been reading articles concerning the death penalty in NYS till my eyes got crossed and I still don't understand any of what they're saying exactly.  Questions......has the death penalty been totally abolished in NYS or just some of the provisions? Can it be still be instituted in certain cases if warranted? 
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Post by gski on Nov 16, 2009 16:09:03 GMT -5
I heard an interesting point today. What if the terrorist say they don't want representation? It's been done before by terrrists. The whole thing could become even more of a mockery than it already is.
April 25, 2006
Jabran Said Bin Al Qahtani, who is accused of constructing circuit boards to be used as timing devices in bombs, appeared in court wearing his tan detention uniform and sporting long, unkempt hair and a long beard. Qahtani was muttering to himself as he was lead into the room and took the first opportunity he had to decry the commissions process.
"I don't want this court," Qahtani said in Arabic when the presiding officer asked him if he needed translation. "You judge and you sentence me the way you want, if this is God's way."
When the presiding officer, Navy Capt. Daniel O'Toole, explained to him his right to counsel, Qahtani called it "nonsense," and said that he does not want his detailed military defense counsel or a civilian defense counsel to represent him.
"I want either to kill me or imprison me, or God will provide me with rescue, and then you will regret everything," Qahtani said.
Even after O'Toole explained to Qahtani that his detailed counsel is trained, experienced and familiar with the rules of the court, and that his counsel would have access to classified information that he can't see, Qahtani still asserted that he did not want to be represented by his detailed counsel.
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Post by bobbbiez on Nov 16, 2009 17:39:50 GMT -5
Ok, so what's the rest of the story? What happen to the defendant? 
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Post by Swimmy on Nov 17, 2009 7:17:54 GMT -5
bobbbiez, I cannot find anything in the penal law or the criminal procedure law that allows for the death penalty under any circumstances.
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Post by gski on Nov 17, 2009 9:59:12 GMT -5
Bobbiez....here's the rest of the story
Representation Issue Arises in Case of Suspected Saudi Terrorist
By Sgt. Sara Wood, USA
American Forces Press Service
NAVAL STATION GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba, April 25, 2006 – A Saudi man facing trial by military commission today followed the example of several detainees before him and rejected his detailed military defense counsel.
Jabran Said Bin Al Qahtani, who is accused of constructing circuit boards to be used as timing devices in bombs, appeared in court wearing his tan detention uniform and sporting long, unkempt hair and a long beard. Qahtani was muttering to himself as he was lead into the room and took the first opportunity he had to decry the commissions process.
"I don't want this court," Qahtani said in Arabic when the presiding officer asked him if he needed translation. "You judge and you sentence me the way you want, if this is God's way."
When the presiding officer, Navy Capt. Daniel O'Toole, explained to him his right to counsel, Qahtani called it "nonsense," and said that he does not want his detailed military defense counsel or a civilian defense counsel to represent him.
"I want either to kill me or imprison me, or God will provide me with rescue, and then you will regret everything," Qahtani said.
Even after O'Toole explained to Qahtani that his detailed counsel is trained, experienced and familiar with the rules of the court, and that his counsel would have access to classified information that he can't see, Qahtani still asserted that he did not want to be represented by his detailed counsel.
Army Lt. Col. Bryan Broyles, Qahtani's detailed defense counsel, requested a delay in normal proceedings to consult with his state bar in Kentucky and the standards of conduct office in the Army Judge Advocate General Corps to determine if proceeding without Qahtani's approval was an ethical violation.
"My view of my obligation to my client dictates that at this point, I would take no action on his behalf," Broyles said.
Broyles said that despite his extensive experience with ethics, including his work as an ethics instructor, he did not know how to handle this particular situation. "I view this as a relatively unique ethical situation that is beyond my capacity to understand," he said.
O'Toole gave Broyles the lunch hour to consult with the two offices for their opinions.
After the lunch recess, Qahtani did not appear in the courtroom. Broyles assured O'Toole that this was a conscious, informed decision by the accused, pursuant to his choice to deny the legality of the commissions proceedings in entirety.
Broyles said that he had conferred with his state bar and the JAG office, and they both gave him oral opinions to continue with proceedings and present the best defense possible. Broyles still requested a delay in proceedings until both offices could issue a written opinion, but O'Toole denied his request, saying that Broyles had not raised a valid ethical dilemma.
During voir dire, which is the questioning process used to determine the suitability of the officer to oversee a fair trial, Broyles raised two issues that caused him to challenge O'Toole's fitness to serve as presiding officer.
One issue had to do with the work of the assistant to the presiding officer with the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Broyles said that the assistant was still conducting federal law enforcement training while serving in the commissions, which would conflict with the rules in the presiding officer memorandum that appointed him. But Broyles could not furnish any proof that the training was conducted during the commissions process.
The defense counsel also raised an issue about O'Toole issuing a protective order in favor of the prosecution, without giving the defense a chance to give input. Broyles said that this action showed partiality for the prosecution. O'Toole dismissed this claim, citing his authority to issue protective orders when he deems necessary, because he has a duty to ensure classified information is protected.
After voir dire, the charges were read and the defense reserved its pleas and motions. O'Toole set a date of June 19 to litigate discovery motions, and July 10 to litigate law motions.
According to the charges against him, Qahtani, an electrical engineering graduate of King Saud University in Saudi Arabia, allegedly left that country shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks with the intent to fight against U.S. forces in Afghanistan.
Qahtani attended a terrorist training camp in Kabul, Afghanistan, and then moved to a guesthouse in Pakistan, where he received further training in how to build hand-held remote-detonation devices for explosives, according to the charges.
Qahtani is also alleged to have built circuit boards for use as timing devices in bombs and to have written two instructional manuals on how to assemble these circuit boards
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Post by bobbbiez on Nov 17, 2009 19:16:56 GMT -5
Gski, I'm assuming his case is still pending. Is that correct?
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Post by bobbbiez on Nov 17, 2009 19:34:12 GMT -5
Swimmy, boy this is getting very confusing. In the last few days I've asked a couple of different attorneys the same question and got different answers. Even asked a former judge and got a different answer. Basically it came down to this the way I understood them....the death penalty in NYS was not abolished but set aside which is confusing in itself. What the hell does that mean?  Now, to confuse it even more, the judge told me the death penalty can be imposed in the killing of a police officer. How's that for getting even more confused? I'm back to square one. 
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2009 18:38:09 GMT -5
Ya want these guys tried by the military? So they can get the death penalty? Fine. Then you better be prepared to wait decades for the executions to take place. Because that's how long the appeals process will take. Keep listening to guys like Guliani, who wants to run for governer & is playing up to the irrational fears of New Yorkers. Trust me. These low lifes will be convicted. Do you actually believe that a jury, made up of New Yorkers are going to let these guys walk? Gimme a break.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2009 18:56:28 GMT -5
Whatsamatter with a little scrutiny of the Bush administration's torture policy? If they did nothing wrong, then what are you & they worried about? Me, I'd like to know the truth about what Bush, the CIA & others did. You may be afraid of the truth, but there are millions of American citizens that would like to know what went on. The truth never hurt anybody, or can it? Are you really afraid of the trial being held here, or are you fearful of some facts that may come to light about what the Bush admin. was really up to? Fox News is putting up a smoke screen by slamming Obama for having the trial here. Why? Because once the facts come out, 'ol Dubya & his cohort Cheney may not look too good. |
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Post by Clipper on Nov 18, 2009 23:35:53 GMT -5
You talk like a typical hard core democrat Kracker. Damn, get off the party band wagon, and work toward what is good for the country, not the party. Dubya is gone and cheney is gone from office. Try the terrorists and do whatever needs to be done with them. It is not about whether GWB and Cheney did right or not. It is a wartime decision that was made. Right or wrong, there is something very bad for the whole country in allowing a sitting administration to try to incriminate and prosecute their predecessors out of political angst.
I am sure that George Bush did what he thought was best for the country, with the situation in Iraq, and with the economy. His programs will end up costing us no more than the stimulus plans that Obama has carried forward since Bush has left office.
It needs to stop. If Obama is this great messiah, lets get on with it and get to saving the world. No time for bashing the past and blaming the problems of the world on a has been president. Show us some balls and get with the program.
I simply think that it is a waste of Obama's time to be traveling all over the world kissing asses and trying to make friends, when he can't even get Pelosi and his other moronic minions to reach across the aisle and make peace right here in the US.
Do ya think maybe it is time to forget about the Florida election problems of years ago, and forget that Gore lost, and get on with TODAY'S problems? Pay back for a disputed election is of NO importance today. Get over it. Revenge is a waste of time.
God, believe me, even in the narrow little minds of politicians, there is room for compromise, once one gets by misplaced pride and puts the good of the nation on the front burner.
I am sure that even those that voted for Obama didn't ever think he would waste the first year of his term, going after George Bush like a damn pit bull. That is NOT what he was elected to do.
He has yet to accomplish a damn thing. He needs to get with the program, and work toward some successes. He promised to close Gitmo. That was a misguided and unpopular idea from the start and he has found that out, so that is put off for a while. His healthcare agenda is pie in the sky and way too expensive, and he is finding that the American people are not going to let him cram that up our asses without some serious changes and modifications.
He needs to realize that he is simply a scrawny little politician from Chicago, with an ego the size of texas, and not some great statesman that can jump up and solve the worlds problems in the wave of his magic wand. He needs to work with people instead of dictating to them. He needs to work with the republicans to mend some fences and work toward a solution to the biggest problems. Republicans and Democrats have never been bedmates, but they have always worked well enough in concert to bring a balance to our legislative branch and stability to our government. Probably would not hurt for Obama to earn the respect of the people of his own country before he goes prancing around the world looking for respect while his own country is in disarray, with political infighting keeping us from making progress.
Everyone bitches when it is called socialism, but I don't know what else you could call it when the administration wants to cram more government oversight into every corner of our lives, when most Americans think we have too much government already. "Government" itself costs a lot of money. Shrink government and you will shrink spending. Simple formula huh?
That is why I don't affiliate with either party. They are all crooks and blowhards. I vote according to a candidates personal agenda, and if it is too partisan he doesn't get my vote. I vote for the man that addresses the issues I am concerned with, in a way that I agree with, not a donkey or an elephant or a party doctrine or party loyalty.
As far as Fox news is concerned. CNN is no better. They are both bullshit, just two different flavors of bullshit. If ya find an unbiased and fair news outlet, let me know.
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Post by dgriffin on Nov 18, 2009 23:57:35 GMT -5
... cram more government oversight into every corner of our lives, when most Americans think we have too much government already. "Government" itself costs a lot of money. My daughter tells me she recently researched a company (she's in corporate lending) where 30 of 600 employees are solely engaged in the collection and payment of sales taxes to the state. That's 5% of the company's workforce just for sales tax! Guess who ultimately pays for it. |
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Swimmy, I need your attorneys input on this. I've been reading articles concerning the death penalty in NYS till my eyes got crossed and I still don't understand any of what they're saying exactly. 
