Searching for roots of U.S. violence

[dgriffin]

www.reuters.com/resources/images/logo_reuters_media_us.gif[/img]


Here's an annoying article, unusual for Reuters, with a hook to the videotaped beating death in Chicago a short time ago . The author makes the shocking claim that the US murder rate is "more than three times the rates of France and Canada." But he doesn't bother to break it down by race. (Which, admittedly, is "against the law" in modern day news reporting. Tomorrow's Historians will look back in wonder and ask what the hell we were thinking.) I don't know about you, but MY friends and acquaintances aren't murdering each other.

And one of the reasons for the rageful killings? The economy, of course. That's right, even crack dealers get the blues. More to the point, competition picks up and feelings get bruised, so they start murdering each other. Don't tell your liberal friends, but sometimes American Justice works in strange ways.

ANALYSIS-Searching for roots of U.S. violence in teen's murder


Wed Oct 7, 2009

By Andrew Stern

CHICAGO, Oct 7 (Reuters) - Much soul-searching and speechmaking has followed the videotaped beating death two weeks ago of a Chicago honor student that has been viewed around the world on the Internet.

The sight of Derrion Albert, 16, getting whacked in the head with a wooden board and set upon by other black teenagers triggered heated discussions about the root causes of youth violence in America and whether it is getting worse.

The uproar led U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder to schedule a visit to Chicago this week with Education Secretary Arne Duncan. Duncan was formerly head of Chicago's 440,000-pupil school system and spoke movingly at some of the 34 funerals held for students slain in Chicago last year.

A thousand mourners attended Albert's funeral on Oct. 3 where speakers decried black-on-black violence. Newspaper editorialists called the Sept. 24 attack a venting of black frustration over intractable poverty and social ills.

"Rage killed Derrion Albert," wrote Chicago Sun-Times columnist Mary Mitchell. "It is the same rage that once led angry mobs of whites to lynch innocent blacks as law-abiding citizens watched. The same rage that once erupted into riots that drove young black men to burn and loot white-owned businesses, as residents hid in their locked homes."

A Chicago Tribune investigation concluded that one of Albert's friends delivered the first blow that knocked him down in a melee that grew out of rivalry between groups who attend the same high school but live in separate, poor neighborhoods.

Four young men and boys have been arrested and charged with murder, based on the cellphone video shot by an onlooker.

CONTINUED AT:

www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN05376939

[corner]

is this not similiar to tribal rivalries and violence between tribes and villages back on the home continent?

[Clipper]

Hell, race or the "homeland" doesn't even have to come into it. It is no different than Irish fighting against Irish, or the gang fights that used to take place between UFA and Proctor over turf in Corn Hill years ago. No different than the cowboys against the indians, or the Germans against the Allies. It is all about turf, and domination. One entity invading the space of the other, whether it be neighborhoods or countries.

It is all like a big football game, with both teams fighting for a yard at a time to push their opponents back and to dominate on the field.

For years dumbasses have beaten and abused intelligent people, simply out of jealousy.

(I never had to worry about being beat up because I was too smart, haha) I DO remember one night chasing a bunch of Proctor guys back to Johnson park after a UFA dance and kicking their butts,

[dgriffin]

I tend to look at our social situation today with the recent past as a backdrop, rather than distant generations in distant lands. I don't think there's any question that in the United States in the past generation or two, the murder rate between whites and blacks is very different. I don't think the reason is skin color or genetic disposition. Nor do I think it is lack of opportunities, although there are differences there, too.
My opinion is the difference is in culture. It is terribly apparent to me that POPULAR black culture ennobles violence, drugs and diminution of women. Popular white culture isn't far behind.

Still, as a middle class white American, I am personally insulted when a member of the media tells me I am part of a group where murders are double the rate of some other country, or that I'm part of a cohort of men where 40% have had a serious run-in with the law (not traffic tickets). The media refuses to separate me by race from the people who are significantly skewing those figures. When I look around me I do not see my (white or black) friends or acquaintances being frequently carted off to the hoosegow, or their teenage children carrying sidearms and killing each other over "dissing" incidents. I not only don't see it, I don't believe that it is statistically true for any race but blacks. I have no figures, but would welcome them from anyone who has them.

Here's a thought. Why don't they assemble the statistics by some other measure, like high school diploma? The teachers' union should applaud that.

[corner]

ive saidit before 3 % of 29% of the population are committing 90% of the crime and most of it is against eaqch other..

[Clipper]

Population shifts and demographic changes drive the statistics. I would imagine in the days when all of Utica's blacks lived in Washington Courts, they only were a very small percentage of the total population.

Remembering Rufe and his following, or the organized crime figures such as the Falcones and others suspected of being in the mafia in the fifties and sixties, I would hazard a guess if they looked at 3% of the 29%, they would have been looking at Italian Americans back in that era.

Come South and you will see a different white culture. A major portion of our murders here are committed by whites, over meth or other drugs. Everyone carrys a weapon, and what would be a little spat up there is a murder here. Domestic violence is prevalent here, and I would risk a guess that it has to do with Southern men not having the same respect for women or their female partners. Many men I have grown to know since moving here, think the woman still belongs in the kitchen and the laundry room, and should know when to drop their pants on command. Cheating spouses here don't get a second chance or a chance for counseling. They get SHOT or STABBED. Our crime is committed by unshaven redneck nitwits with meth labs in their garages, or wives that have grown sick of being beaten twice a week by an abusive spouse.

Racial equality can never be reached as long as white people look down their condescending noses at blacks, profile them, and treat than as less than equal, socially, academically, or in employment, housing opportunity, and blacks look at whites as the one's that have inflicted every bad thing in their lives upon them.

Anyone that tells me that a black kid has all the same opportunities that a white kid does to thrive and succeed is full of crap. If your kid or mine gets into trouble, we hire a high dollar lawyer, get the charge reduced and the kid is home free. If a black kid from Corn Hill gets arrested, chances are he gets a public defender, is sentenced, does his time and has a record to follow him into adulthood. Is that equality?

All one has to do is go to Chicago and drive around the Southeast side. Do it in the daytime so you can enjoy all the scenic beauty of the projects and the substandard housing that people live in. It stretches from Chicago to Cicero Illinois and on South and East into Hammond Indiana. Show me the equal opportunity offered to kids born and brought up in those neighborhoods. Show me ANY opportunity, much less EQUAL opportunity.


When we are this many generations removed from the days when black slaves were brought from Africa, it is a little ridiculous to refer to it as the "homeland" or to refer back to "tribal customs". Give me a break.

Until we erase the line drawn between black and white, we will never undo the ills of racial divide. I sponsored a young black man years ago in the AA program. I was lucky and blessed to be a part of his path to sobriety. I mentored him, as others had mentored me when I first obtained sobriety, but ya know what? I found myself learning more from this young man than I was teaching him. We discussed race and the differences in our cultures in depth, and both of us learned a lot about just loving our brother, and not giving any regard to color or ethnicity. He contributed as much to my sobriety as I did to his. After meetings we would go to Friendly's for ice cream, or to the Jet Diner for coffee and a burger, and talk for hours.

He died of leukemia in the mid nineties with over 15 years of sobriety under his belt, and it was his proudest accomplishment. He shared the program with many other young men of ALL colors over the years and helped to guide untold numbers of lives away from addiction through his testimony and the story of his journey to success and sobriety.

AA is a program for recovery, but it is also one of the only places where I was able to see people "check their color and ethnicity at the door" and come to the tables as true equals. It is a place where doctors, lawyers, priests, and police officers, all sit at the table with people of all social levels, and all races or colors, but all with the same problem of addiction. Regardless of color, they share their joys, their sorrows, their stories, and their hearts, in hopes of helping one another.

It was around those tables that I learned that we are all the same basic frame and inner workings. We just have "different colored upholstery" on the outside. We are of the same heart and soul, and have the same feelings. Sit across the table from a black man and eat ice cream and talk for a few hours and you will find that you have more things in common than you do differences. You will find that no matter the pigmentation of a person's skin, we are all the same in God's eyes.

I guess one has to have an addiction to alcohol to find his way to a place where people don't look at color, and actually treat each other as equals. A place where the emphasis is on helping each other rather than distancing themselves from those less fortunate or troubled.

Time to put the soap box away for tonight, and go to bed. LOL.

[dgriffin]

Well, that was quite a ramble, Clipper. Some of it was on point. Now ... back to the statistics and one purpose of my post. If I and my black brothers have a 40 percent chance of getting arrested for a serious crime, how much does that drop for whites nationwide when blacks are removed from the calculation? Maybe it doesn't drop as much as I might think, but I'd like to know. This is not a racial argument, it's arithmetic. What is it about that question that upsets people?

For Murder rates, here's the data from the Justice Department:

www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

It does real harm, I believe, to ignore these differences and pretend we are a violent nation when possibly only a segment of us is ultra-violent. How can a problem be solved if it is ignored?

The United States cannot make a direct assault on the problem of black violence when the media is largely ignoring it and muffling any discussion in the public sphere. I mean that from the point of view of discussions of the problem, as opposed to the constant play of it on the nightly news.

And your comments about getting to know black people are unnecessary.
I've known the good and the bad, white and the black, and certainly so has Corner.

[Clipper]

Back to your statistics, the trend shows that black on black comprises a high number for the homicides and violent crimes. As long as it is black on black and mainly in the ghettos of our cities, it is obvious to me that the media or the government simply doesn't want to rock the boat.

If the government were to rock the boat or attempt to make a direct assault on the problem, they will have to throw some money and resources at it, and that would take money from other pet pork projects.

With the economy what it is at this time in history, I don't think you will see any money made available to make life easier in the neighborhoods where the violent black crime is rampant, so you will see little change in your statistics. We are too busy paying bonuses to the morons that put the country into near bankruptcy with their greed and thievery, and bailing out businesses that will never pay back what was given to them. We have to save our money to give it to the rich so that they don't become poor like the rest of us.

I am not a great fan or reader of statistical information. Stats can be found in one place or another to justify just about any opinion one wishes to express.

I guess I will never be convinced that blacks don't deserve one hell of a lot more respect than what has ever been afforded them. They were brought here in slavery, and when they were through using them like farm animals and beasts of burden, they simply turned them loose. Very few were given any land, or money to get a start.It is a race that has been resented and looked down upon all through American history, and through no fault of their own. Every once in a while they were thrown a bone in the form of some program or another, but they have never been treated as equals, and have never been given a chance to attain equal status in any great numbers.

That is the statistics I would be interested in seeing. Statistics of how many have actually benefited personally from these so called programs to bring equality in the workplace and in education etc. Show me statistics as to the number of black living in the US and the number that were able to avail themselves of the programs. Also the funding of those programs and how many people could be helped with the limited dollars made available. Probably the loaf went to others while the blacks that were supposed to benefit only got the crumbs, after administrative costs, and the normal patronage of relatives and friends of those running the programs.
I imagine a BLACK statistician could make those numbers talk.

I don't really think the media is ignoring the black violence. Every day we read that a crime was committed, and if it involved a black person, the color is inserted into the news article in a prominent place for all to see.

As I said before, it is a geographical thing also. If statistics were researched for this area of the South, most violent crime is perpetrated by whites and perpetrated upon whites. We have a guy down here that cut the heads off of two teen agers and put the heads in a local lake. The rest of the bodies, he stored in a rented storage unit. We had a guy kill his estranged wife and her friend in the parking lot of a local industry during their lunch hour. We had a meth addict woman shoot her unsuspecting husband in the back because he watched too much football. She then left town with her addict son, and was arrested in a motel in Cherokee NC where they both had overdosed on the drugs bought with the husband's money. Black crime here is not as prevalent as it seems to be up there. We seldom see black criminals on TV. Mostly white drug addicted nitwits that ALWAYS get caught because they are stoned and stupid.

I don't do statistics, but I relate numbers estimated from reading local newspapers and watching local news.

If you live in a large city with large pockets of poor blacks, you will see black on black violence. If you live in a rural area or smaller cities and towns, you will see fewer black on black crimes, and more crime by drug addicted whites and illegal aliens.

[dgriffin]

Just a couple of points and then I'm going to drop it, else risk the spectre of arguing with someone I mostly agree with, and in fact don't disagree with when it comes to race issues.

"I don't really think the media is ignoring the black violence. Every day we read that a crime was committed, and if it involved a black person, the color is inserted into the news article in a prominent place for all to see." That's not true in the northeast, and I'm surprised it's true even down south. Race is NEVER mentioned in newspaper reports that I read, unless it is somehow part of the story. And then some newspapers will go to ridiculous lengths to avoid it. As I mentioned in my last post, we SEE race involved in the nightly parade of violence in the 11 O'Clock news, but a DISCUSSION of the problem appears to be seldom allowed.

"If you live in a large city with large pockets of poor blacks, you will see black on black violence. If you live in a rural area or smaller cities and towns, you will see fewer black on black crimes, and more crime by drug addicted whites and illegal aliens." Seems like a good reason to take a look at the national data to get a picture of what's going on. I share your views on the use and misuse of statistics, but I don't see where this data is telling a lie. I did not use it to state that all or most blacks are violent crackheads. I used it to point out we have a problem with black violence in America. No one denies that, except by inference the media.

[Clipper]

I would not accuse you of misusing the stats Dave. I did go to the link and read the stats, and have to agree with them for the most part. I was also shocked to see how many stats listed whites at a higher percentage in both victim and perpetrator columns. I noted that the murders were of a different M.O. and different ciircumstance, but murder none the less.

My umberage was sparked by the remark that Corner made about the homeland and tribal violence. What the hell if we go back far enough, we all have violence in our ancestory at some point or another, no matter where the homeland might be. Whether we refer to our ancestors as a tribe, or as a clan, we all have the same basic turning points in our evolution to where our families are today.

While I respect Corner, I don't agree with the underlying inference that blacks may be lower on the evolutionary tree simply because they come from primitive tribal roots. He dealt with the dregs of both races in his occupational setting. What may help a situation such as that would be to spend equal time with those NOT convicted of a crime and on parole.

You are right, the statistics don't lie. They are sometimes taken and used out of context, but they do not lie.
I don't agree that the media is the place to address the problem though. It might only bring out more bias and discrimination. The black on black problem needs to be addressed on several levels, but first of all it needs to be addressed by black leaders, and those within the neighborhoods where the violence occurs.

It needs to be addressed by black leaders without the obvious racist attitudes that are possessed by Sharpton and Jackson. It needs to be addressed by black leaders that garner respect and can truly root out the causes and start blacks on the road to realization of what they are doing to their own race. We also need many more programs like Job Corps that get the kids out of the neighborhoods, off the street corner, and into a productive work environment.

We are looking at many more years of slow progress if we started today, but somewhere along the line we need to turn the corner, and ALL of us have to not only recognize the problem, but work TOGETHER to fix it. Lip service and statistics don't fix anything. It only points out the problem and whites can say that the blacks are killing each other, but that's okay as long as they confine it to their own race and own neighborhood.

We all know that I get infuriated with racial issues, but I have since my teen years, watched my black friends get treated differently than I. I have seen the hurt on their faces and the despondence that resulted from the inequality and unnecessary discrimination because of their skin color.

I am still a believer that had the blacks been actually integrated into society as equals when the slaves were freed, we would not be having this discussion. Blacks would have made the economic evolution to equality in the workplace and in everyday society.

As far as you and I go Dave. You are one of my most respected friends. You are more educated and more experienced in world affairs than I am, and I depend on your knowledge to educate me daily. It is a joy to read and learn from folks like yourself, Clarence and others with the time and ability to research and find the facts that you bring.

If our differences of opinion were to be labeled an argument, I would most likely lose a high percentage of the time. If it were a fight, I would be bringing a butter knife to a gunfight, haha. Have a great day my friend.

Corner, I also respect you and understand where your job has steeped you in an environment that is not conducive to sympathetic feelings for those of color, considering they ARE the majority in your former business. The sad part is that the majority of blacks are NOT criminals, and DO deserve some respect and understanding.

While I understand your prejudice, I don't condone it or have to agree with it. I might feel differently had I worked your job, or been a victim of a black on white crime at some point in my life. Kathy worked at the Walsh hospital facility, at the prison in Rome. She worked with the same clientele that you eventually worked with, yet her feelings about discrimination run parallel to mine. To her, they were patients, and without color when it came to equal treatment and care. Corner, friends don't always agree, and I hope we are still friends although there is a great divide in our feelings on subjects of race. Have a good day my friend.

[corner]

i dont know clip even the president went "ghetto" on the cambridge police when he felt they dissed one of his "homies"!

[dgriffin]

I'm not sure I'd call Obama's remark "going ghetto," but it was not statesman-like to voice an opinion without a review of the facts. He did have a point about rousting an old man, but the President failed to realize the dangers Sgt. Crowley is trained to appreciate if he wants to arrive home safe at night. I've been wondering about any late developments in the Crowley-Gates incident. According to a Google News search, there isn't much new since the Beer Summit, so I guess the President singlehandedly solved a race problem. Really.

Regarding Crowley's actions, I found this article interesting. And the very last sentence brings up something I hadn't considered.

cjonline.com/interact/blog/reasonmclucus/2009-10-08/why_cops_have_to_be_suspicious

[corner]

very interesting article which reminds me of the prayer i said every morning when i left for the field"lord let me come home tonite in the same conditon i'm leaving this morning".

[clarencebunsen]

I hate to break into a serious thread with levity (lie of the day) but here is a link to someone who used to be one of my favorite print columnists. I wondered what happened to him.

www.minnpost.com/alsicherman/2009/10/08/12294/can_chocolate_lead_to_a_life_of_crime