Misconceptions in health care debate

[dgriffin]

Misconceptions over key issues in health care debate


Yes, this is from San Francisco and, Yes, they've controlled the argument by loading the questions, but it's an interesting summary nonetheless, after you wade through stuff like "will they kill grandma AND her fetus?" I note that The Chronicle's answer to "Would the proposed cuts to Medicare limit access to care and services for seniors?" differs greatly from FactCheck.org. And I agree with the Chronicle on this one.


"Somewhere amid the noise and rancor of town hall meetings and political ads over the government's effort to overhaul the nation's health care system lies a rational debate.

But in recent weeks the noise has challenged the issues, widening the distance between Washington, D.C., and the town halls and putting words like "mobs" and "death panels" in the same conversation as "pre-existing conditions" and a "public plan option."

Confusion about the health reform proposals is understandable. Health care is complicated, emotional and historically intractable. It involves life, death and money. And details of the legislative proposals are not necessarily clear because the bills are in various states of readiness and flux."


Well, that's the problem, isn't it?

CONTINUED AT:

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/08/17/MNT4198FQ4.DTL&type=politics

[Clipper]

In 1961 Ronald Reagan spoke out against just such a program as what is being proposed now.

Quote: "One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It's very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. . . . Now, the American people, if you put it to them about socialized medicine and gave them a chance to choose, would unhesitatingly vote against it." - Ronald Reagan

Reform may be needed, but rushing forward with the half assed incomplete programs that are being proposed right now is absolute lunacy.

[dgriffin]

Aug 17, 2009 11:58:00 GMT -5 Clipper said:

Reform may be needed, but rushing forward with the half assed incomplete programs that are being proposed right now is absolute lunacy.

And some ... how many? ... of the provisions that will be enacted can be changed after the "national debate." Can't remember which one, but I read the other day that the legislation allows the government to completely change one of the key components in two years!

This is not a national debate. No one knows in total what is being proposed. It constantly changes. It can even change after Congress votes. It's a charade and we'll get what they want us to get.

Meanwhile ... you'll notice ... the national media is giving short shrift to other important issues, like the economy that's going to supposedly pay for all of this. Or the bankers who are still dipping in the public trough while giving themselves bonuses.

A person commenting on a bank story that appeared on a national website last week wondered how a bank that took zillions in public funds was allowed to begin building two new banks in his town in the past few months.

[gski]

I've said before and I'll say it again. We've been told for years about the billions of fraud in Medicare & Medicaid. Government run programs. Show me that you can fix the issues or even some of the issues in the existing programs and then you'll have my attention.

Instead, this reminds me of the old shell game. Put a pee under one shell, move all three around and then guess where the pee is. It's just shifting from one to another and moving the shells. Cut existing, move to another "shell".

Are areas being addressed that should be? In my opinion no.
Tort reform & frivolous lawsuits are a must and aren't being touched.

An OB DR is responsible for a child until they turn 21 in NY.
I asked an OB Dr if he could do it again would he? He said no. He went on to tell me about the lawsuits that he gets that were absolute jokes, but it would cost him more money to have it go to trial to dismiss, so he'd settle. Up goes the malpractice insurance.

It doesn't mean that there aren't lawsuits that are justified, but you've all seen the "coffee" lawsuits. Just take a look at the safely & use tags on a blow dryer or curling iron. Why are they there....lawsuits.

Even the drug companies. Do they make huge profits. Sure do. Again, watch TV, how many ads have you seen for lawsuits against drug makers for drugs that were made 10-20 years ago.

To me, it's our legal system, including government, out of control.

Read the in excess of 1000 page health care bill. I read a good portion of it. It's like reading a legal brief.

[corner]

the biggest misconception is that the government can fix anything...ask a vet about the quality of care their government insurance gets them!!!! the messiah can screw up alot in 4 years they claim the system isnt working due to 47 million uninsured i say it is working because 300 million are insured.

[Clipper]

As a veteran of the Viet Nam war, I get medical care that is quite adequate, but we are very lucky to have a really great facility in Johnson City Tn. The hospital in Syracuse was always a hole. I did use the clinic at Griffiss before I moved here, and that was also quite well staffed and equipped and was a blessing for those of us needing primary care, and prescriptions.

I worry that Obama will degrade the VA system with his new program by shuffling funding away from the VA and Medicare. Those older folks that get medicare NEED what they get and it is needed. The abuses by providers and insurance companies have driven the medicare costs out of sight, and THAT is what needs to be addressed. I felt sorry for my mom and dad when they were alive. They always struggled to reach their out of pocket minimum before medicare would kick in.

Reform is needed, no doubt. Something should be developed to give care to those that can't afford any insurance, but the program as proposed now is absolutely ridiculous and way too expensive to implement in these trying economic times. Something is needed, but there is also a segment of society that will simply sit back and wait for someone else to pay for their care. I resent paying for a lazy ass that sits home playing video games and drinking beer, while not even paying taxes.

I agree with Gski that reform needs to focus on abusive and unfounded litigation, overcharging by doctors and providers for services, and other abuses. The addressing of those issues should allow for lower insurance costs, and possibly a much cheaper program for those in need.

The rush to do no more than honor a campaign promise is very unnerving. We are being rushed headlong into a poorly defined and designed program and it is being rammed through congress for no more than publicity by the Obama administration. He has 3 1/2 more years to get it done, and it takes more than a few months planning to come up with a program that will work, and will be accepted by the American public.

I get the distinct impression that Obama stood up the day after taking office and started cramming his crap down our throats with no regard for public opinon. He is a bully and a legend in his own mind, and while highly intelligent, he needs to step back and listen once in a while instead of "dictating." That fact was confirmed when he was here in Bristol for a town hall meeting. He spoke or "preached" for 45 minutes, and then took 4 questions, which he only half assed answered with more rhetoric than fact. It is all for the cameras and the media. He seems less than concerned for the needs and the desires of the average American.

What is scary is that the constitution that has protected us for more than two centuries, is open to amendment. What the Democrats don't happen to like, they can simply get the votes necessary and change it. THAT is scary.

It is said that the Democrats are considering changing the rules of the senate to allow a bill to be passed with only 50 votes, which would put the whole works of the Senate in the hands of an unopposed 50 democrats, and there would be no chance of a Republican or a more conservative Dem having any influence as a bill was rammed through and passed. such a plan is being discussed as a way in which to ram healthcare through without Republican opposition. It would leave our country a true dictatorship under Obama, Pelosi and Reid.

[Ralph]

The whole damn mess is scary.

Reminds me too much of pre-WWII history in the fact that if people get depressed enough and hungry enough, you can shove anything down their throats and they will think it is manna from heaven.

Till they try and digest it all and realize it's too damn late to puke it back up.

[dgriffin]

Aug 18, 2009 9:11:26 GMT -5 gski said:

Just take a look at the safely & use tags on a blow dryer or curling iron. Why are they there....lawsuits.

[/b]
[/quote]


This also shows how high the lawyers have risen in the chain of command in many companies. Time was when their opinion was called for and considered. Today, attorneys practically run the companies and a board won't move without their say-so. That's because one gigantic claim against your company (put together by wolf packs of lawyers, each investing a $million and incorporated for just a single class action case) can win a settlement against you for tens of millions of dollars and put you out of business.

[gski]

When you sit back and look at this whole mess from afar, you simply have to shake you head and say, "who are they trying to kid?". Then ask,"how the hell did we get into this mess?"

Unfortunately, there are too many answers to how we got here. There's one that I can think of though and it goes to the age of a number of the folks I actually meet a few weeks back. It wasn't like this when, we, they grew up. Could it be that the age of responsibility has almost vanished? The age of being accountable for your own actions?

It seems that this has been replaced by the WIIFM age. What's in it for me along with the not me, or not my fault. Everyone is a victim. Everything is a sound bite. It's ok to lie, cheat and steal. Everyone else does it, so why can't I. Somehow I hear my mother echoing in my head, "if everyone else jumped off a bridge would you?"

I agree with Clipper, this isn't a race, this doesn't need to get done in an hour.
We didn't get here overnight, it's not going to get fixed overnight. The public is feed up with all the crap that being litterly shoved down their throats at high speed under the guise of another "crisis".

[dgriffin]

Aug 19, 2009 10:03:46 GMT -5 gski said:

Then ask,"how the hell did we get into this mess?"

GSKI: Well, I'm certainly glad you asked!! Hahahaha!

The Top Two Things That Went Wrong with America!

Number 2. Giving women the vote. I know this will raise some hackles, don't you think? I'm not a misogynist and I have a great respect for women. My mother was one. I married one. Neither do I really believe they should not be voting; I just say that to put emphasis on a real problem we have across America and that is the need to be safe. That's what I feel the Democrats represent in their party platform, and I do believe that aspect is more attractive to women than men, frankly, even though my circle of friends contains an ample number of conservative women, but a few liberal, too. No, I don't want to go back to the days when you had to worry every time you opened a can of beans, but it seems to me there has been a superabundance of laws passed in the last fifty years that attempt to convince the American public we can make everything safe by legislating it so. The public schools right up through the 16th year (SUNY) bolster this attitude without dwelling on the burden or cost ... dollars and freedom, taxes and surveillance ... that accompanies it. Dependence is another price. We are not far from a society that believes its politicians can provide salvation from all evil.

Number 1. Withholding Taxes. Can you imagine putting aside money each week and then writing a huge check for taxes in early April? And then another one for New York State? What do you think would be going through your mind, after this year's Circus in the State Legislature and Patterson simply giving away $140 million dollars of your money, as you tried to fill in the thousands of dollars amount on the face of your personal check? I doubt if you'd be telling yourself this must be what the Founding Fathers intended. You be thinking, if not revolution, CHANGE. Not the kind of change that some politician says he'll get for you, when you know he's lying, but the kind of change that you would be coming to understand you and your neighbors had the personal responsibility to take and hold. We'd all be out in our neighborhoods organizing, voting the status quo out of office and throttling anyone who didn't promise to cut taxes in half, at least.

But without withholding taxes, the politicians would not have even dared to take us to where we are today. They would have been swept out of office the first time there was a 1 percent tax increase.

Hmmm. That's only two. What did I leave out?

[dgriffin]

I would have to say this forum is getting very quiet when I can suggest we should not have given women the vote ... even tongue in cheek ... without any response.

[Clipper]

Haha! I guess you are simply lucky that Stoney isn't reading regularly, and Bobbbiez is at camp. Don't get too comfortable my friend, LOL.

Just got in from Atlanta. Haven't even unhooked the travel trailer yet. Did I miss anything exciting since last Thursday morning??

[dgriffin]

Welcome back! I miss both Stoney and Bobbbiez. Kept me honest. Sorta.