Discrimination reversed

[bobbbiez]

It seems 45 "white" police officers in Flint, Michigan have a law suit going claiming discrimination. They were passed over for promotions that were given to minorities. They claim the jobs were not posted, no test were given and the usual proper procedures were not followed to filled the positions.

I say, it's about damn time! Discrimination does work both ways and enough is enough. The word "discrimination" is being abused in far too many ways and I am damn sick of it. I am so happy people are finally willing to fight for their rights also.

This is not the first time Flint, Michigan has faced a discrimination suit. A few years back a "white" fireman sued for the same reasons and won his case.

What the hell ever happened to those who are best qualified for the job gets the position? What ever happened to if you want something bad enough you prepare and work hard for it?

I don't remember anyone handing me or my kids something we didn't work hard for. Some where along the line things got changed and not for the better. What incentive are we giving to those who do go the route and work hard for what they seek?

[Clipper]

Heck Bobbbiez, the white officers in Flint and Detroit probably ARE the minority on the force. Both those cities have a large minority (black and hispanic) population. Utica has discrimination suit going on also. The female officer has a good case and may very well prevail. We know officers that have been passed over because of ethnicity also. Utica has always discriminated. I know that most black officers in years gone by, had to start out as chauffeurs, driving the paddy wagon. It has been only a decade or two that higher ranks have included minority officers.

[bobbbiez]

Clipper, you seem to misunderstand where I'm coming from. I believe in any job that the one who is best qualified should get the position. Has nothing to do with discrimination or minorities.

Hey, with a little help from me, each one of my kids WORKED their way through college while holding down jobs to support themselves as they worked for their degrees. No one handed them anything they didn't work for. I watched them struggle to be where they are today and they well deserve the success they themselves have accomplished. If my kids could do it so can anyone else. You justify why someone should get a promotion over my kids just because they're a minority. There are plenty of programs out there for any minorities if they want to get the same education. My God, today they can basically get an education without shelling out a dime or working their way through. Just takes determinate and some sacrifices on their part. I believe no one should be handed any position while others have to work hard for the same outcome.

Bottom line, if ya have the qualifications then ya get the position.

[bobbbiez]

Don't have much info on the discrimination suit case here in Utica, but I don't see it as that. My reasoning is because we do have female superiors in the UPD, one just retired last year with a high rank, so I really can't comment on that until all the facts are known.

I don't believe it's only because she is a woman. I know that female officers in the UPD are highly respected by their male partners. If anything it might be some politics involved which does happen in all jobs, but in this case I'm sure there is a test for the promotion and seniority does come into play. Just have to wait to hear all the facts and what the outcome is.

[Clipper]

The secret words are all stated in your last statement or sentence. If ya have the qualifications, ya get the job.

Flint Michigan obviously will certainly have a hard time explaining how they can promote without a test and a list. That is just plain discrimination period, not a matter of reverse discrimination. Reverse discrimination is a white term brought about by the efforts to level the playing field for minorities. Sometimes overdone.

How can you say I don't understand, and that it is not about discrimination. Uhhh, what is the title of your thread? Is it not entitled discrimination reversed? Affirmative action has outlived it's usefulness and we all know that. The fact that you have kids that are cops makes you especially sensitive to the issue. Your kids are capable of getting promoted. I don't see a lot of discrimination in Utica's department, unless it would be against non-Italians with the Italian majority in politics in the city. That is simply a demographic that comes from having a large and proud Italian community.

Reverse discrimination is a stupid term. When you discriminate, it is discrimination, no matter who it is against. Why is discrimination reserved for minorities, and "reverse" discrimination for whites? That perception is discriminatory in itself. A term reserved for those that consider minorities as an opposing force, rather than equal.

Other than Cornell Maye, who in my estimation was in over his head before Hanna even appointed him, what other minority can you show me that was favored in a discriminatory way in their appointment to a post in the police department?

Now LaBella might be an example of discriminatory hiring. On both the City and the County level.

[bobbbiez]

Clipper, you are digging way in the past as far as "Utica has always discriminated and passed over some because of ethnicity." I say, time to move on, because it is not that way or do I ever think it was as far as the UFD and the UPD and let me explain why I feel that way.

First and mainly, in the past minorities were not even applying for the jobs. They were not willing to take the civil service test that is required to be appointed. Then requirements were over looked for the minorities and they were allowed on the departments without taking the test or scoring much lower then most. Once appointed to receive any promotion in the departments again a test is required. You don't get promoted if you don't take the test, so a claim of being "passed over because of ethnicity" is bogus.

What more do you want for the minorities? Minorities have a better chance of being appointed then you and I because they are a minority and that's without having to have all the proper requirements just to fill the quota so the discrimination card can not be used against the departments.

Again I say, what ever happen to the best qualified gets the job?
And when you are speaking of public safety positions, I would think all would want the best trained and best qualified on the job for our own protection.

[bobbbiez]

Clipper, lets get one thing straight. Anyone that knows me well knows I am not sensitive to any issue just because my boys are police officers. I am the first person who will properly attack the UPD or any other department if it is warranted as "proven" in the OD and on WKTV a few months ago when I publicly attacked the UPD for the lack of working with the public and other problems we here in Utica are facing. That is not the first time I have done that in my many years of working in the Neighborhood Watch Groups or being involved in public affairs.

I do know both sides of the coins but I do and always will say things the way they really are. Sh*t, my boys will be the first ones to bitch to me about that and usually do, but they also realize I am working for public safety first, especially since I live in a target area. So, sh*t-can the "sensitive" part of your argument.

Now, if you read my first post throughout I stated, the word discrimination is being abused in far too many ways and I am damn sick of it. I used the words "reversed discrimination" to prove my point. Lets face it, the word discrimination is used by minorities at the drop of a hat and to me it's getting rather old. My whole point of this topic is I feel the best qualified should always receive the position seeked. No more no less.

[corner]

clip in the utica case the rule of 1 of 3 prevails if there are a 100 people on the list and 99 jobs she could stay unpromoted forever....there is more to this than meets the eye including a question of the individuals overall competence...

[Clipper]

I really don't think that racial reverse discrimination has happened in Utica in quite some time. Not only has it not happened in a while, but now blacks and hispanics are slowly becoming the minority, minority. Bosnians and other ethicities are growing in number, and being "discriminated" against by many.

As far as the ethnic discrimination thing in the police department, be real. That didn't stop until Al Pylman became chief. It is not like I have something against Italians. Hell, the city of Utica has been run by Italians for all of my life, and it has not been a bad thing. It has been a fact strictly because of numbers of voters that went to the polls, so don't paint me as being prejudiced against people of Italian heritage either. Even when the Mayor was named Dulan, the major portion of the council was Italian. It is strictly demographics. That is not a bad thing. Utica has never been run from the West End.

Discrimination and reverse discrimination are both in the eyes of the beholder. Many times both are simply an unfounded perception. I am not off on a rant to defend minorities, simply saying that discrimination is bullshit on both sides of the issue.

Had serious racial discrimination never existed, Affirmative Action would never have been necessary, nor would many other civil rights initiatives. It is all in the past, and it all should be put to rest and gotten over. Sounds to me like Flint Michigan has a minority faction within the department administration that simply did what whites did for years and bypassed others to promote favorites. Totally wrong only if the testing and qualifications have been blatantly overlooked.

[corner]

May 29, 2009 12:33:05 GMT -5 bobbbiez said:

Clipper, lets get one thing straight. Anyone that knows me well knows I am not sensitive to any issue just because my boys are police officers. I am the first person who will properly attack the UPD or any other department if it is warranted as "proven" in the OD and on WKTV a few months ago when I publicly attacked the UPD for the lack of working with the public and other problems we here in Utica are facing. That is not the first time I have done that in my many years of working in the Neighborhood Watch Groups or being involved in public affairs.

I do know both of the coins but I do and always will say things the way they really are. Sh*t, my boys will be the first ones to bitch to me about that and usually do, but they also realize I am working for public safety first, especially since I live in a target area. So, sh*t-can the "sensitive" part of your argument.

Now, if you read my first post throughout I stated, the word discrimination is being abused in far too many ways and I am damn sick of it. I used the words "reversed discrimination" to prove my point. Lets face it, the word discrimination is used by minorities at the drop of a hat and to me it's getting rather old. My whole point of this topic is I feel the best qualified should always receive the position seeked. No more no less.

bestqualified dont always get the jobs hmmmm i can think of the president and our governor as cases where a couple of minorities are in way over there heads and their ability togovern fairly.... lokk at obama recent pick for supreme court who has a record of reverrse discrimination in her decisions.

[corner]

and if i could type as fast as i could think id be formidable

[Clipper]

When ya take it to that level Corner, I have to concede defeat. You are damn sure correct about Obama and Paterson. You are also right about the choice for supreme court justice. What did they say? she has had 5 out of 7 decisions heard by the supreme court, overturned?

I just don't see it happening at the local levels on a large scale anymore. Especially in police departments and agencies that were rife with discrimination in the past. I would be assured that they are more than aware and cautious not to get caught up in it.

As far a Flint, we will have to see how the lawsuit is adjudicated, and for the Utica case, I am familiar with the young lady involved, and she always seemed more than competent to me. She was always a very good cop.

I will say this. If she doesn't win the lawsuit, she will never be promoted after making the allegations and precipitating the peeing contest with the department administration.

[corner]

had the opportunity towork with her on a task force a couple of years ago not the sharpest knife in the drawer

[bobbbiez]

Corner, Obama was elected by the people and the judge for Supreme court is an appointed position and doesn't compared to what I am referring to in promotions in a civil service job. I believe you take the test required and the best qualified person should get the position regardless of ethnicity.

I have sons who are senior officers, meaning time put in, and never heard them complain about not being promoted for all positions they seeked. Sure there is a disappointment but such is life. One doesn't always get what one wants.

There are proper procedures to follow for a civil service promotion and that's the way it should be. I feel they should be followed for the most qualified person to receive the position posted. Way too many today raise the discrimination card if they don't receive what they want. That's what I am sick of hearing. Can't get my point out any clearer then that.

[bobbbiez]

Clipper, I really don't think Plyman had much to do with ethnic discrimination stopping in the UPD. It's more like Utica became a dumping ground for all ethnic groups and more ethnic groups are applying for the positions.

Shit, my boys have been on for over 20 years and most in their class appointed were from all ethnic backgrounds. Remember, my boys were from W.Utica and are of Polish, Italian, German and English descent and both got appointed even if they were as I call them, moguls. ;D

As it has been the UPD needs and have appointed many qualified from all different ethnic groups in their department just to be able to interpret and communicate with most living in the areas they patrol.