Should Kunkel be a monopoly?

[Clipper]

I am not surprised that Kunkel Ambulance Service is raising hell about the competition from the City of Utica. I was an EMT and an EMT instructor back in the late 70's and early 80's. I worked for "the other" ambulance company in Utica. Kunkel at that time, was far superior in equipment and quality of services. My employer had old equipment and was not interested in improving his service. That is why I left.

Kunkel was much smaller then, and still on West St. They constantly cheated, and jumped our calls when we were up on the rotation list that existed back then for ambulances and tow trucks.

The EMS council is made up of folks from all aspects of the service, but private ambulance service owners have always held a ruling majority on the council, when compared to public EMS personnel. Joe Taylor from Amcare Ambulance in Rome was always very influential, and rightly so, as he is a pillar of the EMS community, in both his service and his teaching for many many years.

Jack Kunkel however was never as involved in the volunteerism or in teaching, and always has focused on simply increasing his own profits and monopolizing the market in the area.

Kunkel has enough business with transports that the city does not involve itself in, and other ALS calls outside the city. He can afford to share the stage with the city. He NEEDS to share the stage. The City of Utica's Paramedics are of equal or superior quality with those at Kunkel. They respond anyhow, and often rode to the hospital, assisting Kunkel personnel, FOR FREE.

This whole damn mess is strictly politically and financially driven by Kunkel and the council. It is time to drop the crap and share the revenues in the name of the safety of the people of Utica, and their right to have a choice of services.

[strikeslip]

What I would like to know, when the OD reports about the alleged profits that the city is making, have they taken into account the OVERTIME that is being paid? My suspicion is that this is an Overtime sink . . . an excuse to ding the retirement system. . . . and that the taxpayers are being ripped off.

I'm all for competition . . . but not when one of the competitors is the government.

[tanouryjr]

I agree Strike. I was against this from the start. It was all about trying to raise revenue and justifying overtime and jobs. The Overtime went up over a million dollars and we bonded until 2026 for the amulances that experts say have a lifespan of 8 years. That means in a couple years, taxpayers will be paying for the new ambulances AND the old ones no longer in use.

I agree with competition too, but not when government is putting private sector jobs out of business. Should we open a grocery store too? Better yet, what would the Mayor think if the council decided to open a city run funeral home?

[bobbbiez]

Have to admit I am not up on the "facts" concerning the cost to taxpayers but I do want to add my two cents.

Long before the city offered this service Kunkel was a monopoly. They did put others out of business and had all the income for themselves and they thrived.
I do agree with Clipper when he stated Kunkel did cheat on the rotation list and took plenty of business away from their once competitors.

Personally, since we have a choice whose services we want to use without a doubt it will be the UFD every time. If I'm in need of that service I sure as hell would want qualified people caring for me and I have full faith in the UFD to give me that. Example- if i need surgery I'm not gonna go to a GP, I'm going to a specialist.

[wcup102]

This is ceetainly a multi-faceted issue that have legitimate arguments on both sides. Years ago I worked for an answering service from 10 pm to 8 am and one of the accounts was Kinel ambulance that we dispatched for at night, along with about 7 fire departments, AAA(what a bitch in the winter), plus numerous other businesses. Jack and Kathy Kunkel could be very difficult people to deal with. They expected everything to stop when their phones rang. Of course we took emergencies first and everything did sort of stop until they were rolling. But they would call and scrutinize us about detail of calls in the middle of the night. I was handling a multi fire dept. fire one night and Kathy wanted to quiz me about a call they had and why I sent ambulance 4 instead of ambulance 3. I explained that the other crew was unreachable on the radio and the hospital said they had already left. So I call headquarters and get the second crew up at 3 am. That crew complained to Jack and Kathy because they were the rig for the outer districts that serviced the outside Utica area and that the call was not an emergency. I had three FD's yelling and trying to to talk to her so I finally said I have real emegencies occurring right now you will have to call back in the AM. WOW.....that pissed her off!!!! But I digress....I don't believe they should be a monopoly, but I also don't believe the FD should "pad" thier numbers if it is only to bolster their ranks. It should boil down to cost efficiency, quality of service and may the best man win. Should this really be a revenue issue? Should it not be for "quality of life" issues and its' role in the continuum of health care to the community and bolstering reasons for wanting to stay in the area and raise your family?

[WestmoGuy]

wcup102, was that Answer Com you worked for?


The $500 grand the city says if makes on their ambulances probably doesnt cover the overtime it costs to run it. Why do they need overtime to man the rig anyway? We'll never know for sure.

I was a Kunkel-ite in my past life too. It was the FD that would let some of the large ego EMT's they had do their thing in the field and get all the glory of saving someone's life, THEN call for the ambulance for transport.

Funny how a lot of the guys I worked with ended up going to UFD, though we hated most of them so much.

Jack and Cathy are nice people but business people. How would you like it if your business was taken away. There's always be enough of the "take gramma back to the nursing home" for them in this area though.

[wcup102]

yes, Westmo, it was Answer-Tel then answer-com after I left. Yes they are nice and I understand them being business people, but they can have their moments and several of us there were dealt with unprofessionally on several occassions. I even told my manager at the time that if I was so "bad" then fire me. They didn't because because they new myself and another guy were both vol fireman and had medical training and experience that their other staff did not. We could handle the calls and know what was needed. They had us both on nights where the call volume was for emergencies. I left first and went to the Sheriff's Dept. and then I got the other guy into the Sheriff's dept. about a year later.

[dan]

wcup102,

Well, I know I spoke to you more than once. I was (am) with Frankfort Center.

[bobbbiez]

WestmoGuy, I guess the old saying comes to my mind when it comes to Kunkel, "pay back is a bitch!" ;D

They might be "nice people" and upset that "business is being taken away" from them, but that's exactly what they did to the other ambulance companies Utica once had by constantly jumping calls on the rotation list.

Sorry, but they didn't make themselves a monopoly by being "nice." Now they have the competition and they don't like what they did to others in the past.

I always say, "what goes around comes around."
Guess it's Kunkel's turn to feel the pinch now.

[frankcor]

What are the chances us mere mortals will ever see a complete P&L report on the city's ambulance service? All we get are selected pieces from the daily paper and mayor's spokespeople.

[WestmoGuy]

Nice to see it from both I think HAHA

[Clipper]

When it comes to the safety and quick response, I wish they would both cut out their little power struggle and concentrate on serving the people that they BOTH serve. There is surely enough trauma and critical medical emergencies to fill both of their plates. Kunkel is not going to starve or go out of business because they are forced to share the stage with another provider.

Kid your self not. Jack Kunkel is in it for nobody but Jack Kunkel, and he cares about nothing but the bottom line and his wallet. Everybody has to screw with the fire department and the police department. They are the two most important entities in city government, but always end up on the shit end of the stick when budgetary issues arise.

Utica has a fire department that took the initiative to insure that EVERY firefighter was trained, at a minimum, to be an EMT, and many to be paramedics. That was an enormous undertaking, and a great service to the city's citizens. Imagine this. WHENEVER a firetruck leaves the station, there are trained EMT's on board, and whenever the call is of a medically emergent nature, such as a car accident, the medical personnel are on scene as soon as the first fire rig arrives, and sometimes the city's ambulance will be there ahead of the fire engine.

Yes, Kunkel has a comparable response time in many cases, but the firefighters often are there first and treat the patient or victim first, and then without the City Ambulance, they are forced to turn over care to Kunkel personnel, and there is that interruption and the time lapse while FD personnel bring the Kunkel EMT's up to date on the condition of the patient.

While I was in Utica over the holidays, I still saw plenty of Kunkel ambulances screaming about, sirens wailing. There must still be enough business in the city, and in the surrounding towns to keep them rolling on a steady basis.

Just yesterday I saw where Kunkel was used at the scene of an accident outside Barneveld. There could be three reasons for that. Either Prospect was busy, Prospect didn't have ALS qualified people on board, or KUNKEL JUMPED THE CALL and responded without being called, and both ambulances were on scene. Prospect is not going to argue over territory or calls, when they can let Kunkel transport the victim, and it allows them to remain in service in the area that they serve.

Kunkel has spread out all over the county, so why do they have to argue over the little piece of turf that is the city of Utica?

[bobbbiez]

GREED!!!!!

[Clipper]

Exactly! As long as the services in question meet the standards of care, and have the latest in equipment and technology, there is no justifiable reason for a "council' or "board" to interfere in fair competition. Especially when there has BEEN NO FAIR competition in the Utica area for years.

I can see the reasons to determine a "need" before building a hospital, and even then, hospitals get overcrowded and patients have to be diverted to hospitals other than their first choice. But in a free enterprise system, anyone that can afford to buy an ambulance, and is willing to hire fully qualified individuals to man that ambulance, there is no feasible reason for any agency or entity to prevent that person from investing their own money in a business venture. the city of Utica has found a way to keep their people working, and to bring in some extra money to the departments budget. NO business makes money at the onset. It will take time to get off the ground.

Does anyone think that Kunkel started out many years ago making money on his first ambulances?? If he did, why would he have had to have both businesses. The funeral livery, and the ambulance. I have to think one was more profitable than the other, and one of them came about in order to supplement and support the other.

[wcup102]

Bilking the insurance companies!!!!!!!!!