NYRI, again

[Clipper]

When I was last driving back and forth to Long Island with a truck, I noticed that that Thruway right of way was plenty wide enough, just judging by how far from the road they were laying innerduct for the fiber optic lines. Yes, there would be plenty of room for a power line. That sure would raise hell with the reception on your car radio wouldn't it? LOL. Go from NYC to Buffalo and never get away from a high tension line, coming either from Niagra Falls or the St Lawrence Valley.

I have to think that between the Maglev trains and the power lines, the troopers would have to rely on laser. Radar and Vascar would probably be interfered with by the fields around the maglev and high voltage power lines.

[strikeslip]

Since someone mentioned the NYC water system, I thought I'd throw in a bit of trivia.

The NYC water system is very interesting. It is one of the greatest engineering feats of all time. And, yes, EPA did NOT require NYC to filter its water because NYC instituted various rules to protect its watershed and prevent contamination. If NYC had to filter its water like Utica does, it would break the bank. (It's my understanding that Syracuse also does not have to filter its water -- at least the water that comes from Skaneatelas Lake.)

Back in the 1970s NYC was thinking of taking Hinckley Reservoir, raising it 50 feet, and then sending the water down the Mohawk and Hudson where it would have been intercepted and used down there. I did some research on it back then. NYC is exempt from the water resources planning laws that apply to other cities in NYS (they wrote the law to exempt cities of over a million people). If my memory serves me right, had this occurred, Utica would likely have been subjected to the Administrative Code of the City of NY, which would have limited use to the per-capita use in NYC. But we had some clout back then and got this scheme shelved.

Now I wonder if we would not have been better off with NYC owning the water supply. Although we would have lost control, we also would have been subject to their rate structure. Being closer to the sources of water cheapen the rates. Westchester is part of the NYC system and has rates CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER THAN WE DO.

[dgriffin]

You could be right, Strike, about things being better under NY City code, but be careful what you wish for
For a number of reasons, it's difficult to parse the interests when it comes to New York City and New York State. First, there is the large representation of the city in the state legislature. When you include Long Island on issues that affect both the city and the island, upstate might as well throw in the towel.
And what is "upstate?" Westchester, largely a bedroom suburb to the city, is often aligned with the boroughs on many issues. All of our lead politicians are from downstate, supported by lobbyists with downstate interests. A large portion of the state's tax revenue is from the city and the stock market, even though the latter will suffer the next couple of years. And there's the "economic engine" argument.
About 15 years ago, I had a temp assignment that took me often to the city and on Friday evenings I'd catch the train north along with hundreds of state workers who were on their way back to Albany from work that kept them in the city all week. One of the reasons for the MagLev idea was to put Albany and New York an hour closer to each other. A lot of business got conducted in the bar car.

RANT ON:
When you think of it, it's pretty amazing that New York City doesn't for all practical purposes "own" the rest of the state. The reason why it doesn't? New York City is completely f*cked up. Maybe not as badly as New Orleans. But just as badly as most large American cities that are figure-headed by pretty faces (politically speaking), but in large part are actually administered and run by people who comprise America's new political class. Larry sees them all the time across the council chambers. High school friends who never left their virtual neighborhoods, married each other's sisters and know how to make deals but not good government. These are not "the best and brightest" individuals. And they are interested more in self than the welfare of the people. A few folks like that are good for the mix. But when most of your legislative body is out solely for themselves, you get high taxes and little service. You get disproportionate amounts of tax revenue going to the other end of the socio-economic spectrum in the name of "fairness," but what is really happening is the wholesale purchase of votes. No, I can't provide any citations to back up my theory. Hahahahaha!
RANT OFF.

[tanouryjr]

Strike, I was reading about the NYC water system a while back. I never finished the book but will now make sure to get back at it. From what I understand, it was a great engineering feat. It is all carried from miles away in HUGE pipes. At risk of sounding stupid, I will get back at the book to refresh my memory on where it comes from and all the specifics, lol. BTW - I did just get your email. I have to remember to check that account more often.

[Ralph]

I think if you examine things closer you would find that if we could cut NYC and the Island off and let it float away, we would be much better off.

[dgriffin]

Dec 9, 2008 1:22:22 GMT -5 Ralph said:

I think if you examine things closer you would find that if we could cut NYC and the Island off and let it float away, we would be much better off.

That's a pretty common feeling, everywhere in the state. Alas, it'll never happen. And I don't know that it would be all that good for the rest of the state. But I haven't ever seen a serious proposal with numbers.

Back to the water system, I live not too far from and fish the Ashokan reservoir, one of several upstate reservoirs that drain down underground aqueducts to the city. Each aqueduct is a handmade laid up stone passageway about 12 feet in diameter.
The Ashokan was built by a chief engineer named Winston in about 1913. After he took the job, he bought a farm just over the ridge from me and raised hay to sell to himself for the horses that were used in the construction of the dam. Each day, I've read, there was a line of hay wagons stretching from the farm to the Ashokan, some ten miles away. A good book about this particular reservoir is "The Last of the Handmade" dams. Quite a feat. Built by horses and young Italian immigrant men.

[tanouryjr]

"Aqueducts!" That was the term I was looking for, lol. I believe you can see one, that comes above ground, in the city while riding the subway.

[tanouryjr]

Oh yeah...Ralph, I tend to agree about splitting us from NYC. I would like to see us become TWO seperate states, North NY and South NY. Maybe then we could have a Gov. and Representatives that look out for Upsate's concerns. We would also get two U.S. Senators that would focus solely on our needs in D.C.

[dgriffin]

Of course, there have been efforts for New York City to secede from NY State, beginning with the Civil War and continuing right up to today. Jimmy Breslin in 1969 ran on a mayoral ticket and advocated the secession. He proposed the city keep the name "New York" and the new state the name "Buffalo."

Regarding upstate dividing itself from New York City: (Wiki)
"A parallel Upstate New York statehood movement seeks separation due to taxation and economic concerns.[4][5] Former State Senator and current U.S. Congressman Randy Kuhl, from rural upstate Hammondsport, was a significant advocate of such an action and introduced several bills to that effect during his time in the state senate.[4] However, the Public Policy Institute of New York State said in May 2004 "Secession would be impossible, and the last thing New York needs is some kind of destructive Upstate-Downstate showdown. But given the prolonged lag in Upstate’s economy, it is time to think seriously about whether there is a way of restructuring the relationship to give Upstate the opportunity — indeed, the freedom — to reduce some of the disadvantages that are smothering its economy." "

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_secession

Also:

"Could New York Let Upstate Be Upstate? Upstate’s economy is in trouble.
Part of the problem is ‘made in New York.’ And more freedom might be part of the solution."

www.ppinys.org/reports/2004/letupstate.pdf


The Big City; The Moochers From Upstate? Cut 'Em Loose
THE city's politicians are desperately trying to keep the bullies in Albany from taking away our commuter tax, but there's a much more lucrative way to preserve our fiscal honor.

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802EED91531F937A15756C0A96F958260


A blog comment from downstate:
"I'm sick and tired of hearing about young people fleeing New York State, upstate New York being a rust belt hole, New York State having no money, etc. None of this applies to the New York City Metropolitan Area, and yet they drag us down with the rest of the state. I think it's time for New York City, Long Island, Westchester County, Dutchess County, Rockland County, and Orange County to secede. We can form our own state and we'd probably be better off. What do you think? Is Upstate New York (Western NY) dragging us down and offsetting the statewide statistics and making our area look bad?


Perhaps a more balanced view, with advantages and disadvantages from an Upstate point of view is here:

yorkstaters.blogspot.com/2007/01/state-ofupstate.html


Here are the arguments from each point of view.
Reasons NYC cites for separation and Reasons Upstate NY cites for separation, at:

www.politicalbase.com/issues/division-of-new-york-state/110/

Here is one of the city's reasons to secede:
"NYC taxpayers provide $3.5 billion more to the state government in Albany than are spent back within metropolitan NYC."

So if that's true, Larry, you need to explain to us how we will make up the 3.5 billion dollars we now are evidently getting as a subsidy from the folks in the city. Maybe we should send NY CIty a thank-you note, rather than divorce them.

[dgriffin]

Dec 9, 2008 14:00:45 GMT -5 @tanouryjr said:

"Aqueducts!" That was the term I was looking for, lol. I believe you can see one, that comes above ground, in the city while riding the subway.

Don't know about seeing them in the city, but you can partially see them up here. When you cross a field and come to a 5 or 6 feet high carefully shaped mound of dirt that extends from the horizon on your right to to the horizon on your left, you're looking at an aqueduct, at a point where the lay of the land dropped away. In those areas where the aqueduct is partially exposed, "Meet you on the aqueduct" is a favorite invitation of kids to each other for an evening of hanging out.