Calif. Supreme Court rejects gay marriage ban

[dgriffin]

I'd say we have established that most of us would agree with the following:
1. Gays are nice people, or so much so as the rest of us.
2.Many of us have gay friends who have relationships, often formalized at least between themselves if not in the public sphere, i.e., legally, politically.
3.Gays can probably raise children as well or as badly as the rest of us, but there exists a question among some as to whether such "family" activity should be encouraged. This seems a good area for discussion.
4. Here's my personal hot button: the question of the politics of "gay-dom" is probably the same for any other minority group that seeks to push its agenda on the general public. There is a difference in my being courteous regarding your needs and having to defend your needs. There is a difference between my being aware of your sensibilities and my having to listen to them so often I find it annoying. As an extreme example, I have the right to bear arms and I believe anyone has the right to do the same. But I don't believe there should be a rifle over every county clerk's desk, church altar and school room. I think that would probably annoy some folks.

[frankcor]

agreed

With regards to point 3, I believe there is a hierarchy of beneficial parental arrangements for children, from best to worst:

- committed heterosexual parents (mom and dad)
- committed homosexual parents
- single parent
- state foster care or institution

I pray that those 540(?) children taken from their mothers on the abuse-compound in Texas are able to work their way up from the bottom soon.

[concerned]

Swimmy, you brought up some interesting points.

In terms of the sacrament of marraige. The priest or minister does not " marry" the couple. He and those in attendance of the wedding ceremony witness to the vows that the couple proclaim to each other. The sacramental part of this is born out of the vows that the couple recite to each other. The legal aspect comes in signing the agreement between the two.

The courts can grant a divorce and the church can grant an annulment. The divorce recognizes that a marriage exist between the two and legally want to disolve this. The annulment states that the marriage never existed in the first place because an obstical existed prior to the couples recitation of the vow that prevented the sacramental aspect of the marraige from even happenning.

Here is an example using Cannon Law: Joe and June are married. Problems develope and the seek and are granted a divorce. Lets say years later Joe and his new girl friend want to have there vows witnessed in the Catholic church. The divorce is the obstical in granting there request. In talking to the priest Joe states that the reason he divorced in the first place is because June never wanted children. To make a long Cannon Law argument shorter, an annulment is granted because one of the purposes of marriage is to bring children into the world . The wedding between Joe and June in terms as being a sacrament never existed. Joe is free to marry within the Catholic church. This also applies to the Anglican church( The Church fo England)

There are alot of interesting laws that govern the sacrament of marraige. I liked studing Cannon Law in graduate school and even had several cases that I began and brought up in the tribunal and had granted.

[corner]

to simplify things the catholic church will grant an anulment to any body who can pay the tab got one in 1983 and the first questionasked by the nun at the tribunal wasand i kid u not "did you remember to bring your check book?"

[concerned]

I can't believe that at all. The several I worked on were done for free.

[Clipper]

Been there and done that Corner. I was going to apply for an annulment when I married my second wife. I was told that there was a $600 fee to "file the paperwork". !!!! The priest also told me that the fee was to discourage abuse of the annulment process. I guess I was an abuser, because it damned sure discouraged me. We were married in the Dutch Reformed Church on Herkimer Rd, by a Baptist Minister (Don Benoit). Some other lucky catholic was given the honors of paying the Bishop's car payment THAT month.

[kim]

I just looked up annulments...here's what I found:

# How much it will cost.

The cost can vary from church to church. The average cost is around $500 with a portion due at the time the case is submitted. The rest can be paid in monthly installments. If you cannot pay the full amount, arrangements can be made, through the church to defray some of the expense. No case is turned down due to a person's inability to pay the fee.

[dgriffin]

A friend of mine moved to Alabama some years ago, is a Catholic Deacon and works for the Diocese of Mobile handling annulments. He considers it a healing ministry, he told me. I'm not quite sure I see that, but he feels that couples in gaining their annulment come to an understanding of themselves and their failures.

[Swimmy]

Thank you for that explanation, Concerned. It cleared up some of my confusion about marriage.

[concerned]

Consanguinity in the !st degree was always one Cannon Law code that I found interesting. How anyone would even consider entering in a marraige contract know this is beyond reason.

[Clipper]

Consanguinity is a term that I came across while researching the Oneida Community years ago. The legal definition, as well as the religious definition, could keep you reading for days.

While attempting to perfect a race of superior intelligence, the community inadvertently, also spawned many babies with defects, and retardation problems through inbreeding.

We ALL came from the same blood line if we are believers in the biblical theory that we all descended from Adam and Eve. That is taking lineal consanguinity back to it's true roots. Collateral consanguinity is an easier theory or process to wrap your mind around.

It is with this collateral consanguinity in mind, that I cannot understand man's inhumanity to man. I am firmly committed to the idea, that WE ARE ALL BROTHERS in reality, and should treat each other as such. If one reads a little bit about consanguinity, one would understand that whether you subscribe to the religious definition, or the legal definition, it is blatantly clear, that we are all brothers by blood, to one degree or another, either lineally or collaterally.

I have been pondering the possibility of the inbreeding that would eventually occur withing the polygamist society of the sect in Texas.
It is inevitable with the small number of people involved in the community.

We could end up with a whole race of horney old men, and homely women with their hair piled high, like old maid school teachers, LOL.

I have hijacked the thread away from the subject of annulments, but the term being used on the forum, prompts me to relate the interesting reading that I did on the subject back in the 60's.

I can't remember any of the literary references from back then, but there are plenty of sites to visit, simply by going to "wiki" and typing in the word consanguinity.

[Clipper]

Concerned, I don't remember who the bishop in the Syracuse Diocese was when I was attempting to obtain and annulment, but we were working with Father Quinn from St. Peter's in N Utica at the time. He had been my favorite priest in the early days of his priesthood, while he was assigned to St Paul's in Whitesboro.

I thought it really "commercial" and worldly to "charge" for such a thing. Especially the amount that they asked. Things like that are what drove me away from the catholic church. It became too much about the money, and not enough about the nurturing of the soul.

I have to add, I truly envy and respect the faith exhibited by many of my catholic friends, and I don't ridicule the beliefs. I simply speak from my own experience and the resulting belief.

It is my true belief, that we all worship the same God, come from the same roots, and will all go to the same heaven. It is the degree of "worldly" religious observance here on earth that varies from person to person and church to church.

[corner]

concerned, think they will give my money back from25 years ago? Clip got married to the most wonder woman in the world in Jue of 06 eloped to niagar falls came back to the american side for a ceremony and repeated the ceremony 2 months later at St Leos in Holland Patent thanks to the Auspices Of Father Vincent Long a priest of reasonbleness.

[kim]

I didn't get married in a Catholic church, I got married in a Lutheran church because, although I was raised Catholic, my husband was raised Lutheran, and the Lutherans promised we'd be in and out in 30 minutes. We wanted to make it fast so we could get to Hart's Hill Inn and start the party!

We had a great party, too. 4 hour open bar, live rock band, and a ton of food. Our cake had a fountain in the middle. Truthfully, though, while the party was great fun, I think if I were to do it again I'd go to a justice of the peace and have a cookout for my friends afterwards. Save a lot of money that way and we could have purchased our first house faster! Yes, we DID pay for our wedding ourselves with no help from anyone.

[corner]

the only way to go Harts Hill does a nice job