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Post by firstamendment on Jul 22, 2011 19:52:55 GMT -5
first I read it on WKTV, then I caught it on the 6. Yeah they still will not own up to any responsibility.
Now she claims her little angel was bullied by Lippett and his friends? Really? The shooting happened over a year ago, so where was this allegation all this time? bullshit. they've been blaming the victim from day one. I also find it hard to believe in a school district almost exclusively WHITE that a black kid would be in any position to bully. Not that it is impossible but highly improbable.
Besides that, his written statement to police in the hospital in the beginning stated in his own words he drove around trying to shoot ni**gers. It didn't say he wanted to kill the bully. His statement was very clear in his intent.
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Post by JGRobinson on Jul 23, 2011 5:59:07 GMT -5
Bullies are the #1 cause of tragedy in our Public school systems (Columbine and 20 others in the last 2 decades). It goes on constantly and is most often ignored or labeled silly things like Boys will be Boys or Rough Play for years. Children turn into Teens, they grow bigger and angrier and have many more means and channels today to correct perceived injustices in the 21st century than the 20th. Cars, knives, Guns, Electronic Networking and Instant News all provide retaliatory tools for minds that are not yet able to deal with the complexities and peer Pressures associated with growing up in America.
I respectfully but strongly disagree with your premise FA- "I also find it hard to believe in a school district almost exclusively WHITE that a black kid would be in any position to bully." Sounds pretty unlikely but I know it happens, trust me, it happened to me a hundred times.
You need to understand this one fact, there were times I would have literally killed just about anyone to stop the sometimes daily beatings. I don't know why I didn't just wipe them out but I didn't. Some counseling, the Army and a good Moral Grounding probably saved their lives and mine. I have worked with a few of those former bullies in the last 17 years, they mellowed and are no longer scary to me or anyone else. Most of them never ever mention any of it, like it never happened.
Things are not always black and white when it comes to bullying. I went to a school that was 99% Caucasian Families and <1% Americans of African origin. The Two oldest Sons were bullies of the highest order. The one in my class was a great big kid and he would pound the crap out of at least 1 person a week. He slammed me around more times than I could ever say or ever wish to remember.
It wasn't just the dark kid that did it, at Madison Central, it was just considered good fun to find a weakling and pound them when things got a little boring. Hell, occasionally the teachers would even do it! We had a couple Gym and a History teachers that would smack you around just as badly as the bullies! After the poundings, the Bully most often walked away and the Victim would get scolded and sent back to class. I wouldnt dare mention any of them by name back then and the bystanders "never saw nothing" if asked. It would have meant increased poundings would follow. I left there in 10th grade otherwise I wouldn't likely have ever graduated.
Bullies are a huge problem, their parents either condone it or refuse to even accept it happens. Most of the bullies I knew were actually not the poor minority kid. It was the Brats of those that ran the District that caused the most trouble and nobody ever stopped them. They were the Jocks and their buddies and I would do just about anything not to be the one they singled out at lunch time, recess or break between classes. I dont think I ever bullied anyone but If I had, It would have been condoned and accepted I'm sure.
I never did understand his anger until I figured out that being in the only Dark American family in the school must have been pretty tough. He had 2 choices, be the Victim or the Victor. He wasn't going to be picked on so he had to dish it before he got it himself.
I did hate him at the time because I really didn't think beating me down should help bring him up. There were other times when I visualized how I would retaliate, I cant say they were reasonable thoughts, some were pretty evil. I didnt just have them about him, Teachers and Spectators brought on the same feelings. I dont hate much of anything anymore to include Hendu but I got I big and mean enough so that nobody has hit me in decades without me returning the favor in triplicate!
He really did have it tough and that made him try hard to be even tougher. None of these are excuses for that type of behavior and Im not implying that its even the case with this sad tragedy in Pooperstown but I can say without a doubt that it has and probably does continue to happen and by some of the people you would least suspect.
We had our own case of it some time ago when the Sons of an American of African Decent State Trooper, A Doctor and a Senator in Oneida broke a young mans Femur at the bus stop. He is the son of another local Doctor of Indian decent.
It took 2 weeks to hit the paper and they covered up the Identities of the abusers (and their parents) even though the Victim was fully identified and interviewed by the press. Any time I mentioned the Senators name and the incident (Dave Velesky) on the OD, either the Thread got locked or they removed my entry.
That was one of the reasons I stopped posting there, I never mentioned the Kids names, just the parents, the OD was covering for them big time. To this day, those kids are still in the same school and the young man that was snapped like a twig must look at their faces as he tries to get an education.
Things really have not changed and I dont think they are going to as long as we allow the Bullies and their parents to hide behind YO shields and create excuses for their brats home grown despicable behavior.
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Post by dgriffin on Jul 23, 2011 9:23:21 GMT -5
JG, I saw a bit of that while I was teaching in a public school. Depending upon the players involved, it could be difficult to neutralize a toxic student who insisted on his right to pound on others, disturb classes, etc. Often he was labeled Special Ed and I have no doubt such a student was dealing with real psychological issues. However, his problems should not prevent other students from getting an education or enjoying a safe environment.
Things weren't so PC back when I spent 12 years in Catholic schools. You went out on your ass if you didn't behave, didn't respect the teachers or continually acted out and refused to get along with others. After a few second chances you were shown the door and told not to come back, often your backside, an arm or a leg still hurting. The Brothers didn't hold back much when you pushed their buttons.
Boys will be boys, but we were expected to act like mature men. It wasn't always easy, but we had constant reminders to do so.
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Post by firstamendment on Jul 23, 2011 9:25:54 GMT -5
I am not trying to minimize or mock the affects bullying has. I experienced some of it growing up as have 3 of our kids. I just find it hard in such an atmosphere where there is little diversity that the minority could gain such power as a bully would have over people.
Absolutely bullying is a problem that needs serious attention. If you hadn't noticed, I opined greatly on the stories about the gay kid bullied in Mohawk on both the OD and the Herkimer Telegram. His and his father's statements about what officials did and didn't do virtually mirrored the same we went through with each of our kids. NOTHING. The schools did nothing tangible to alleviate the situation. they took no action against the bullies, only moving our kids to different seats in classes or different seats on the bus. It took our kids to stand up to the bullies to finally bring it to an end. An unfortunate solution.
Virtually all cases of bullying involve criminal behavior. All of it. Harassment, assault, menacing, theft, but virtually never do you see a school actually call the police to report these crimes occuring on school grounds. WHY?
The Valesky case is completely disgusting and even worse is his silence on the matter. Bastard is about all I can say about him.
As far as the Cooperstown case, I still find it difficult to believe this shooting was the manifestation of bullying. You'd think a year + after the shooting there'd be someone talking about it in public for the news to pick up on it, but we've not heard a peep.
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Post by firstamendment on Jul 23, 2011 9:28:31 GMT -5
Things weren't so PC back when I spent 12 years in Catholic schools. You went out on your ass if you didn't behave, didn't respect the teachers or continually acted out and refused to get along with others. After a few second chances you were shown the door and told not to come back, often your backside, an arm or a leg still hurting. And that is the way it still should be. Force parents to take responsibility for their kids. If the kid can't behave in school, it is the parents' problem not the school's and certainly not the other student's.
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Post by Clipper on Jul 23, 2011 9:58:00 GMT -5
www.cnycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=542339I vaguely remember reading about the Oneida incident, but I didn't realize until you mentioned it Dave, that it involved a trooper's son and Valesky's kid. I had to hunt about in order to find the articles that were written at the time. It's amazing how it was covered up quickly because it happened to be all minors involved. How convenient for Valesky and the trooper's careers and reputations. It also sounded to me that the school officials came under some pressure, or were hesitant to take any serious action because of the influential parents involved. Racial issues don't have to be black and white. Here is an example where the kid was probably picked on and harassed due to his ethnic background and race by both black kids AND white kids. Bigotry is not reserved for any one race or ethnicity.
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Post by firstamendment on Jul 23, 2011 13:37:01 GMT -5
Bigotry is not reserved for any one race or ethnicity. Exactly.... I think Swimmy summed it up best when he called humans a despicable species.
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Post by JGRobinson on Jul 24, 2011 4:59:59 GMT -5
Actually, Sero (SP) is both a minority and I believe has a Developmental Disability. His dad is a Dr as is the Dad of one of the Bullies, one is the son of a American African State Trooper, the Third is the Son of Dave Valesky. I never ever Mentioned any of the Kids by name even though YO doesnt stop me from naming the Teenage Mutants but Dave Valesky is a Senator, I expect better of him. Another case where a minority Kid was also involved and there aren't that many American Africans in Dave's affluent neighborhood.
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Post by firstamendment on Jul 24, 2011 6:14:45 GMT -5
That case is disgusting, absolutely disgusting, JG. It takes a lot to break a femur (thigh bone). It is the biggest and strongest bone in the body. It is a very painful injury, believe me. Because of the pedigree of the kids involved, we'll probably never hear of the case again. The kids with get YO and the parents will quietly reach an undisclosed settlement with the victim and family. To be fair, parents don't have 100% control over their kids, especially when they are not present like at school. BUT, I find it difficult to believe there were no signs these bullies had issues. Not only that, but we are talking about one parent who is an elected public official, someone who has an obligation to speak out AGAINST this type of behavior. And another parent who is a member of law enforcement who's job it is to PROTECT people from this type of behavior. Both parents failed in their obligations to the people. www.uticaod.com/news/x151219644/Police-Boy-s-leg-broken-by-bully-at-school-bus-stop
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Post by dgriffin on Jul 24, 2011 6:42:00 GMT -5
Interesting aspect of the bus-stop case was the age of the boys, 12 and 13. Would it have made a difference if they were 10 and 11? 9 and 10?
"Both parents failed in their obligations to the people." How? By not allowing the media to feed on their children's names? I would have done the same.
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Post by firstamendment on Jul 24, 2011 9:48:03 GMT -5
"Both parents failed in their obligations to the people." How? By not allowing the media to feed on their children's names? I would have done the same. No, by addressing that bullying IS a serious issue and needs to be addressed. As parents, they have every right and obligation to protect their kids and I understand that. But as public officials, they also have a duty and obligation to protect the public and address serious issues as this. By remaining silent, they do not address the issue at hand.
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Post by JGRobinson on Jul 25, 2011 5:29:29 GMT -5
Dave, Its a small town. Everybody knows just who these kids are and their parents identity. Valesky didnt need to mention his brat by name but he should have taken a stand. The Minority Trooper has the same responsibility twofold and the Dr has a duty to the injured people he mends also.
Somehow I don't think your kids would do or get away with this shit, I believe you would have made them pay severely for much less than this. Besides; 11, 14, 16, what does it matter, as long as they understood what they were doing was wrong, they are responsible to answer for their actions. I bet the son of a cop and a legislator both knew they were wrong before during and after.
The victim endured the harassment for some time before it ramped up to major physical injury. Victims find out early, report it and it will likely only get worse, don't report it and it definitely will get worse! Do the questionable Rights of the YO Perpetrators trump those stolen from the victims? His rights to a safe and an equal access public educational experience was taken from him by these mini thugs.
This could have and should have been a leaning moment but instead it was a news blackout. YO does not prevent the public from the ID or discussion, it only stops the authorities from announcing it. Does it make you wonder what else we dont hear about?
Their silence also guarantees that those brats will still attend the same school and the victim will relive this attack 500 times in his mind. Every single time he sees them walking down the hall, he will remember the snap of his femur and being wheelchair bound for months.
Their silence and the full participation of the local Press should be a warning sign to the rest of us that if you are someone, you can hide anything! If you are nobody, you get whatever you get!
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Post by dgriffin on Jul 25, 2011 10:20:54 GMT -5
JG and FA, you could be right and your assumptions on the mark. I just find it presumptuous to say, "Both parents failed in their obligations to the people," without being really familiar with all of the details. Maybe a reporter should ask the parents why they did not take a public stand.
Maybe the parents would say they dealt with the matter privately. I would want that option as a parent and I might feel the public was overstepping its bounds by reminding me of my public obligations. As one politician answered a reporter in a case in which I wish I could remember the details, "That's YOU speaking. The public can speak to me in the voting booth."
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Post by firstamendment on Jul 25, 2011 10:53:18 GMT -5
Well they can speak both as parents and public officials. They can, and should deal with their kids in private, and I completely respect that right as any other parent is afforded.
But the bone of contention is the silence on a very public issue. They don't have to acknowledge it was their kids involved in this, but they should absolutely speak up on a very serious issue that they've now been personally drawn into.
To be clear, I'm not looking for a public lynching on these kids or their families. I find it very disingenuous that public officials in this matter have remained very hush hush. We are to believe all efforts are being made to get bullying out of our schools yet here is a case resulting in serious injury and not a peep? It is completely possible to separate the personal nature of this incident from the very public seriousness it presents and people in the public sector should be prepared to do just that.
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Post by dgriffin on Jul 25, 2011 11:23:45 GMT -5
OK, maybe you're right. Since I used to do this for a living (for corporate moguls, not politicians) I constructed a press release for any one of the parents expressing their concern about bullying. I then put on my pretend lawyer hat and re-read the statement to make sure their youngster was not implicated in any wrongdoing or association with other children who may have been involved in wrongdoing. And of course, the statement could not for liability reasons imply the opposite, i.e., blame the victim, who in any case at that time became a litigant in multiple civil actions (probably) against the families of the perps, the school system and homeowners on the corner where the attack took place (maybe.) As a result of my pretend legal reviews, advisor input and a particularly incisive note from my party chairman, the statement that began as a prize-winning and heartfelt plea for the elimination of Bullyism now reads like this: "Mrs. (Fill In Name Here) and myself are aware of the constellation of feelings and sensitivities surrounding this unamed issue and we will carefully study all sides of it. We want to thank all of you for supporting us at this time. (If needed: Again , we appreciate the opportunity to take a stand against anything that does not fit in with our American values and in particular goes against the beliefs so fervently held in this legislative district.) (Only if deemed necessary: We wiil issue another statement in the near future.) (AVOID: ... when hell freezes over.)"
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