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Post by bobbbiez on Dec 21, 2009 20:04:52 GMT -5
Let me tell you if that were my son I sure as hell wouldn't welcome him home by saying, you're the man dude," because he got over on a cop. I'd kick his a** for speeding 50mph in a 30 mph zone. Would definitely educated him big time that he first broke the law and could have killed himself or others if he lost control of his vehicle. Speed limits are put up for a reason and not for him to break. Then his car keys would be in my pocket until he again took a safe driver's course. Again, the word prevention and educate comes to mind.
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Post by Swimmy on Dec 21, 2009 20:36:43 GMT -5
Oh, I'm well aware of that noble idea that a cop is on duty 24/7. While a policy manual may make such outlandish claims, the fact is that such a notion couldn't be further from the truth. Otherwise, overtime would be astronomical and bankrupt the city faster than the council and mayor can spend it. Additionally, I can't tell you the number of cops I know who forgo a traffic stop when their shift is over; it's an alarming majority.
And, if we follow that logic, then how could they "donate" their time if they're constantly on the taxpayer dollar?
In any case, we seem to have come full circle. Many are educated about their rights, more now than before. It seems you agree with me and have changed your position somewhat. We just disagree on who needs more educating. I say police do since I work in the trenches of their aftermath. And I'll say it again, one violation of a person's constitutional right, regardless whether the victim is guilty, is one violation too many! Prevention? I think so, but it needs to come from the people whose behavior is most offensive to the constitution.
Lastly, I often watch those "real tv" videos and wonder if there would be so many of those if there were no instances of police abuse/brutality like in the current examples.
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Post by Swimmy on Dec 21, 2009 20:37:41 GMT -5
OK, I've watched the tape. I think it's an excellent presentation of how to act with the police. The kids are respectful and knowledgeable of their rights. The police officer can be considered either out of line or just doing his job. I'll give him credit for knowing when to quit. Good tape! Agreed.
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Post by bobbbiez on Dec 21, 2009 20:42:59 GMT -5
Ok Dave, would you agree if it were your son that by informing and educating him that speeding is against the law and speed limits are for everyones safety, would be the best solution so there wouldn't have to be a stop. That's what I mean by prevention.
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Post by Swimmy on Dec 21, 2009 20:56:51 GMT -5
Oh, I meant to add .... In the tape the officer is doing nothing illegal, from what I've read. Yes, he lied and/or implied untruths to further his ability to search the car without probable cause. But from what I've read, the police are allowed to lie in order to gain access, even without a warrant. Maybe Swimmy can verify that. Heck of a state of affairs, though, when you or your kids can get pulled over for speeding and subjected to such behavior. You are correct. Officers are allowed to lie and attempt to strong arm you in waiving your rights. And in my experience from my few times being pulled over, with the exceptions of late, I've conducted myself similarly in those situations and had no problems. The officers even appreciated that I turned my car off and explained that I had to reach over to the glove compartment to get my registration and insurance card. With the exceptions of late, I've found that where I have my car engine off, my hands on the wheel at 10 and 2, and explain that I'm going to reach over to the glove compartment for the requested documentation, the officer is courteous in return and willing to be more flexible. For example, I was pulled over one time for having a brake light out. He let me go on my honor to have it fixed by the close of business. I went two steps farther, took his name down, and had the police station that verified I fixed the brake light call that officer's police department to verify I fixed it. The officer told the inspecting officer to thank me for my verification followup. As for the videotapes I've posted, I haven't seen in any of them dangerous antics on the part of any citizen, not that it can't or doesn't happen. What I have seen is dangerous escalation by officers. Again, I appreciate LEO's wanting to go home safe at night, and I support their activities to do so. But there are ways of conducting themselves that enhance their image and there are ways that do not. Agreed. I'm certainly happy to say that of the few times I've been stopped by the police, my impression has been of men and women performing professionally and courteously. That is not to say I have always agreed with them, but I have never had an experience similar to any of these videotapes. Of course, I always took the advice of badge-carrying friends, similar to what's been seen in the tapes, keeping my hands in sight, not getting aggressive, and letting the officer do his job up to the point where he or she might tramp on my rights. With the exceptions of late, that too has been my experience. Last month was the first time I was threatened to be arrested for exercising my rights.
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Post by Swimmy on Dec 21, 2009 21:05:34 GMT -5
Ok Dave, would you agree if it were your son that by informing and educating him that speeding is against the law and speed limits are for everyones safety, would be the best solution so there wouldn't have to be a stop. That's what I mean by prevention. Everyone knows not to speed. Some do anyway at excessive speeds and get what they deserve. But there are times where there are obvious speed traps, e.g. a 55 mph and 100 or so yards further a decrease in speed. Twice, I've been pulled over in those zones and I explained to the officer that I saw the change in speed and began to decelerate accordingly. Both times, I was let go with a warning to begin sooner, which I've done. And in those circumstances where even the best efforts to prevent being pulled over, a person still has a right to exercise their rights. Sometimes, it is mere oversight. I was stopped at a roadblock back in October 2008. The officers noticed my inspection had expired by one month. I totally forgot about it, and the officers realized by my reaction that I merely forgot. I offered to pull over up ahead so they could run my license and registration and not hold up traffic. The state trooper just told me to carry on and get it fixed first thing in the morning. I asked him for his name so that when I did, I could have my mechanic call him up to verify I got it done. It was the first time I was told that it was not necessary and to just get it done. He then told me to enjoy the rest of my weekend and waved me on. I thanked him. AND I got my inspection taken care of that Monday.
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Post by bobbbiez on Dec 21, 2009 21:23:45 GMT -5
Ok Dave, would you agree if it were your son that by informing and educating him that speeding is against the law and speed limits are for everyones safety, would be the best solution so there wouldn't have to be a stop. That's what I mean by prevention. Yes, I understand, and I agree that NOT breaking the law is always the best solution. Not only that, I really like Polish women. lol!!!!!!!!!!! That's because we order you to.
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Post by bobbbiez on Dec 21, 2009 21:50:44 GMT -5
Oh, I'm well aware of that noble idea that a cop is on duty 24/7. While a policy manual may make such outlandish claims, the fact is that such a notion couldn't be further from the truth. Otherwise, overtime would be astronomical and bankrupt the city faster than the council and mayor can spend it. Additionally, I can't tell you the number of cops I know who forgo a traffic stop when their shift is over; it's an alarming majority. And, if we follow that logic, then how could they "donate" their time if they're constantly on the taxpayer dollars? Swimmy, if I remember class well and I'm not mistaken police policy and procedure mandates for if a possible felony is being committed an off duty officer has to act, not for a traffic stop, but honestly in my 65 yrs I have not yet seen a cop off duty that will drive by without pulling over when another cop has pulled someone over even for a traffic stop. They are watching each others backs more so in today's world. An officers gets paid for only the eight hour shifts he works or for over time if he is called back to work. He's not paid by the tax payer for 24 hours but is on duty 24 hours. He is not paid for any community affairs such as the mall shopping. That is his time donated to his community. Both UPD and UFD, taking away time from their own families, do plenty of hours on their own time to give back to their community and also to interact with the public. They should be commended by all of us for doing such.
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Post by Ralph on Dec 22, 2009 2:30:41 GMT -5
Maybe we have a dead horse, but I will still interject anyway.
Please keep in mind that in some states it is a violation to not sign a ticket and does put one under cause for arrest. In the video the Officer was clearly within his rights to arrest the individual (if this is s state with such a law) and was in his rights to Tase him for non-compliance. This does border on resisting arrest, clearly.
And no, he did not need to have his rights read to him….though an explanation of “why” would have been nice. And be sure; for every “questionable” video one presents here, Corner and I no doubt can produce a dozen where and Officer was beaten or shot during a traffic stop.
There will always be those on both sides of the fence; those of us with Law Enforcement backgrounds and those in the general public…….and of course the Lawyers that know more about the Law than either of us.
And Swimmy, please don’t take that as an insult…..it is a compliment, Lawyers well versed DO know more than the rest. But please keep in mind, all of you, that what happens on the street can be worked out in court, no matter what side you are on.
Confrontation with a LE Officer is never a good thing. Out on the road or a lonely highway….or even in the “hood”, an Officer will (or should) always err on the side of caution and his protection of self and the public at-large. While this may not always fall within what one may consider “Constitutional Rights”, it is what it is.
It goes back to what I had said earlier; “I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six”. It is the bottom line……who gets to walk away. You can battle anything out in Court in the end, but on the street you only have your judgment to get you through to the end of your shift.
Right and wrong can be decided later, and usually is. Go with the flow and cooperate when you can. If you feel you are in the right and are being wronged, tell the Officer you want a Supervisor on the scene. Easy Peasy, put you both in the clear and as Swimmy has pointed out...cooperation is looked upon as a good thing.
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Post by Swimmy on Dec 22, 2009 7:18:16 GMT -5
Maybe we have a dead horse, but I will still interject anyway. Please keep in mind that in some states it is a violation to not sign a ticket and does put one under cause for arrest. In the video the Officer was clearly within his rights to arrest the individual ( if this is s state with such a law) and was in his rights to Tase him for non-compliance. This does border on resisting arrest, clearly. And no, he did not need to have his rights read to him….though an explanation of “why” would have been nice. And be sure; for every “questionable” video one presents here, Corner and I no doubt can produce a dozen where and Officer was beaten or shot during a traffic stop. There will always be those on both sides of the fence; those of us with Law Enforcement backgrounds and those in the general public…….and of course the Lawyers that know more about the Law than either of us. And Swimmy, please don’t take that as an insult…..it is a compliment, Lawyers well versed DO know more than the rest. But please keep in mind, all of you, that what happens on the street can be worked out in court, no matter what side you are on. Confrontation with a LE Officer is never a good thing. Out on the road or a lonely highway….or even in the “hood”, an Officer will (or should) always err on the side of caution and his protection of self and the public at-large. While this may not always fall within what one may consider “Constitutional Rights”, it is what it is. It goes back to what I had said earlier; “ I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six”. It is the bottom line……who gets to walk away. You can battle anything out in Court in the end, but on the street you only have your judgment to get you through to the end of your shift. Right and wrong can be decided later, and usually is. Go with the flow and cooperate when you can. If you feel you are in the right and are being wronged, tell the Officer you want a Supervisor on the scene. Easy Peasy, put you both in the clear and as Swimmy has pointed out...cooperation is looked upon as a good thing. But I also pointed out that my most recent experiences have not been as fruitful. I received a ticket for unsafe lane change when a guy went around me and hit me. The cop was not even present; I called 911 to report the accident. When I explained what happened to him, he told me to be thankful I wasn't arrested for what I did. My friend sat there laughing when the cop said that, which didn't make matters any better. I asked him how he could give me a ticket and not the guy who hit me, and the cop pulled out his hand cuffs and said he'd be happy to give me a tour of the lockup. I don't care how much respect you have for cops, that is completely unlawful and unjust behavior. So I put the cop in his place when I fought it in court. As I left, the cop said he better not catch me in Endicott again, if I know what's good for me. I'm supposed to respect that and thank him for that?! You're insane!, no Yes you can argue anything in court. But cops trampling on constitutional rights that put you there is not only expensive (paying legal fees or the ticket to get it over with, not to mention the expenses associated with the courts) but unnecessary and extremely dangerous for a democratic society. Hence why I keep saying cops need to be educated on the constitution and learn to respect it as much as they do their guns. One victim's trampled constitutional rights because of this improper notion that cops should be bowed to like kings is one offense to the constitution too many. Ralph, thank you for the compliment. I truly believe that if everyone went to law school, half our problems might be solved. Everyone would see thinks differently and more clearly. Who knows, cops might be less inclined to intrude on your constitutional rights.
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Post by rodwilson on Dec 22, 2009 10:37:30 GMT -5
Great point Dave. Then maybe everybody would know that they can call for a superior on the scene and have a some insight to their rights. It's a sad commentary that citizens have to be educated against the tactics used by LE to get one to implicate themselves.
And law abiding citizens get caught up in this all the time. A few years ago, my family and I were pulled over on 5S in Frankfort (go figure). The cop said I was speeding. It was rush rush hour and there was NO WAY I was speeding. There were cars passing me like no tomorrow and I was stuck BEHIND the car that everyone was trying to get around. So he pulls me over, asks for the usual compliment of documents. He comes back and states that the registration is suspended and that he's going to tow my car. My family is in the car including two boys under 3. It's March, late Spring, cold and he wants this to happen on the side of a busy highway. I attempted to explain to him that the suspension was an error that had been corrected. At the time we owned 2 of the same vehicles. Make and model, one was an '04 and one an '05. The error, which was our fault stemmed from making the insurance payment on one car twice leaving a lapse on the other. This mistake had been discovered before this incident and was corrected. Insurance on the vehicle was current and we had the docs to prove it. This guy simply didn't care. He was towing the car and putting my family on the side of the highway. He did it to be a dick and to make sure his buddies @ the towing company made $100. I subsequently spoke to folks in the know that said he could have easily let me go with the instruction to get the information corrected with DMV. Fortunately, my mother in law came out to pick us up. Of course we had to transfer car seats on the side of the highway, stand on the side of the highway exposed to the elements and the danger of these cars flying by.
The issue lies in the us against them attitude with the government, law enforcement and private citizens. They can break the law and laws are bent so that they can pursue private citizens. The ever eroding constitutional rights of the US citizen exacerbates this problem. As long as government continues to invade the lives of citizens with policy, constant surveillance and invasive tactics the situation will continue to erode.
And let's face it, traffic and motor vehicle infractions are money makers. For everybody involved and it comes right out of the pockets of citizens. People know and understand this and it pisses them off.
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Post by corner on Dec 22, 2009 10:39:24 GMT -5
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Post by rodwilson on Dec 22, 2009 11:16:30 GMT -5
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Post by Clipper on Dec 22, 2009 11:21:07 GMT -5
Sounds like a winter weather dunk tank for charity. I wish I was coming North for Christmas this year, I would pay $10 for two snowballs. Hell, I probably wouldn't hit you anyway, haha.
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Post by stoney on Dec 22, 2009 12:17:51 GMT -5
Say 'hello' to Jim in the Meat Dept. that day, Rod!! He's leaving at 2:30 so I'll tell him to drop something (not made of meat) in the kettle.
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