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Post by concerned on Apr 22, 2009 19:56:26 GMT -5
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Post by dgriffin on Apr 22, 2009 21:33:12 GMT -5
Concerned, that's a good find!
Perhaps my favorite book about Galileo and his tribulations is "Galileo's Daughter: A Historical Memoir of Science, Faith, and Love," by Dava Sobel, a woman whose every book I have enjoyed. (Longitude, The Planets, Path, etc.) The book quotes heavily from the letters written to Galileo by his daughter, Sister Marie Celeste. (Galileo put both daughters in a convent, because they were technically illegitimate and he didn't have to money to legitimize them, a legal and church proceeding in his time that involved lawyers and money ... lots of it.) Only her letters survived in his estate. His letters to her did not, because when a nun died, her few worldly goods and clothing were bundled up and burned. Other than her body in the ground, she was to leave no trace on earth. But Galilo remarkably stands out in her letters as Sister Marie comments back on the astronomer's notes to her, which included many insights on the heavens and her father's work.
Galileo was pig-headed, and thought he could beat the Hierarchy at their own game, because he believed Urban admired him and was his friend. Pope Urban (the fifth?) wasn't dumb enough to take up the cause of an eccentric loose canon against the permanent bureaucracy of the Vatican. The interesting thing about the whole affair was that very few, if any, of those involved believed the solar system was geocentric, which at the time was the official Jesuit line and the unofficial position of the Church.
The moral of the story: Don't f**k with the Jesuits.
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Post by concerned on Apr 23, 2009 18:57:29 GMT -5
true about the Jesuits and I love what you have discribed.I have always liked church history. You seem to have a fantastic intellectual grasp on it
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Post by dgriffin on Apr 23, 2009 19:10:44 GMT -5
Not really, no. Just remembering parts of what I've read. If you want to debate with some characters who really do know church history, go here: groups.yahoo.com/group/commonweal/I don't think you have to subscribe to the magazine. I'm sure you're familiar with the publication. I subscribed to it for about 5 years, then 2 years of America, and finally one year of First Things. With that reading and membership in the above Yahoo group, that was all the "church fights" I want in a lifetime. Seriously, it was fun to follow the arguments and participate in them, even though I can't be considered a true believer (in Catholicism.) And I was often in way over my head, since many of the group members were brilliant and learned. But as Merton and others found, while many of the arguments in The Church might be meaningless, they are always spirited and intelligent. |
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Post by concerned on Apr 23, 2009 19:36:45 GMT -5
Merton. Everytime I try to type something about his way of revealing God all I can say is awesome
"I can't be considered a true believer (in Catholicism.) ": Approaching God and experiencing him is all that is necessary. I believe we are all called to practice that and somehow be united in His school of brotherly love.
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Post by dgriffin on Apr 23, 2009 20:54:28 GMT -5
Merton. Everytime I try to type something about his way of revealing God all I can say is awesome " I can't be considered a true believer (in Catholicism.)[/b] ": Approaching God and experiencing him is all that is necessary. I believe we are all called to practice that and somehow be united in His school of brotherly love.[/quote] I said that proudly!! Hahahaha! My spiritual director tells me our lives are prayers that we don't need to analyze, songs only needing to be sung. (And stories needing only to be written.) I haven't read Merton in a long time. I sort of burned out on him in the '80's. I can't remember all I read. At the moment, all I can recall is that the "knobs" (small hills) he loved across the terrain surrounding the Gethsemani Abbey in Kentucky weren't as scenic as I had always thought from reading his descriptions of the area. I guess since the world is always beautiful, when your world is only 100 acres, it's beautiful no matter what it looks like. |
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Post by Clipper on Apr 24, 2009 10:41:01 GMT -5
Concerned, "approaching God and experiencing him is all that is necessary. I believe that we are all called to practice that and to somehow be united in His school of brotherly love" pretty much describes my simple "religious" doctrine to the max.
Religion and theology become a complicated and muddied subject to try and wade through, when a simple mission to live by the ten commandments and the golden rule pretty much assures one of a life of "right" in the eyes of God.
I firmly believe in prayer, and believe it is answered in God's own time. I also believe that organized religion is a product of mortal man and serves only as edification for, and the satisfaction of the "religious", not necessarily any "God given" purpose.
Some of the greatest"religious" minds that I have encountered in my life, were those clergy that I met around the tables of a 12 step program, who had been humbled and brought back to reality by an addiction to alcohol, and the recovery found through humbling themselves before God on a "personal" level, and learning from plain people (peers), coming from every walk in life.
I have found over the years that God speaks English. I don't need an interpreter that calls himself "reverend" or "pastor" to translate for me. I talk to God, and miraculously, he answers me in his own time.
I guess I would read the manuscripts with interest, but strictly as a historic document or for it's scientific content relating to the solar system, and would shake my head at the "ungodly" actions taken by the so called "godly" persons of the Vatican.
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