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Post by corner on May 22, 2008 7:50:21 GMT -5
yeh clip we had had the family history discussion a couple of times, the memory is the 2nd thing to go at your age i guess
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Post by Clipper on May 22, 2008 8:04:36 GMT -5
I guess you are right about the memory thing. I could not remember whether I discussed it with you or Fran. I exchanged emails a couple of times with Fran also. I always politely asked him for an explanation when I had a post deleted, and I always received a courteous reply. I heard people bitch about their posts being taken down, but I bet most never followed up with an email to inquire why.
Although I didn't like the moderation on the OD forum, I understand that for him, it was a paid position, governed by the postion of management. For us here on this forum, moderation is much looser, and guided only my our own discretion. It is a whole different ball game.
I have to say, I just plain didn't like that Onwalu person at all. I think she became the death of the forum personified. I found her to be a "self important" cocky pain in the ass.
Drop me a line someday in a PM and let me know what Fran's take on the clippers corner is. You might tell him, I didn't agree with his moderating decisions many times, but I always found him friendly, and courteous, and considered him a "friend", although he was only basically an acquaintance through the forum.
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Post by frankcor on May 23, 2008 12:38:08 GMT -5
Great story, corner. I'll print it out to show to my priest.
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Post by jrcummings on May 25, 2008 3:52:02 GMT -5
Dear God, what has happened to my church? I was born, raised, baptized and grew up in that church when it was on Fay St. by the arterial. It's sad to see it come to this. In fact I am still a member because I didn't want to change my church membership. After talking to my mother, I liken the church to a corrupt business where somebody, a couple of somebodies are lining their pockets. There is something fishy going on here, why would a Reverend want to stay in a church he's not wanted in? Why is his response to the oust, I'm not leaving because god has not told me to leave? Instead he talks about money. I can't make an unbiased statement about the man, because some of the people named in his suit I've known them all my life IE Mr. Wilkerson, and Mrs Short. They bring up the validity of the vote stating that only regular church goers could vote. I am and have been for 30 years (I was baptized in that very church at age 5) a member what that tells me is that my vote doesn't count. Either way he's making the church look bad, he's dividing people that have been in the congregation for years and he basically put the church back in debt(but you haven't heard that from me). Mrs. Alston has been a trouble maker in that church for ages. She actually was against Rev. Upthegrove, and he was a great pastor. He was voted out, so he should move on out. If he does win that church is going down.
On the other hand, I say this is Karma, I've witnessed the drama in the church first hand. They wanted to rid themselves of Rev. Upthegrove, now they can't find a suitable pastor to replace him and they always have drama. All the drama they caused him, it's good to see it coming back around. He basically made that church only for them to oust him at the first opportunity. Ever since that day St. Pauls is spiraling downward. My mom doesn't even go there anymore, she'll only go when I come home because thats where I like to attend church.
Sorry for the shotgun sporadic post, but my wife went to lady's poker night and I had to watch the over energized, curious 1 year old, so I'm a little tired.
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Post by Clipper on May 25, 2008 8:51:13 GMT -5
It brought back memories when you mentioned Reverend Upthegrove, Jr. When the church was on Fay St., I took the congregation on bus trips on a few occasions when I was driving for Central NY Coach Lines on weekends. They always asked for me, when they chartered a bus. I took them twice to a church in Rochester, and once to NY City for a Christmas shopping trip.
Reverend Upthegrove was a personal friend of my Mom's. They served together on the board of directors of he Overseas Friendship Center. He and his wife graced our home on a couple of occasions. He always captured my full attention with his " preacher" voice, and his jovial personality. He was with us at the Diplomat Restaurant in N.Utica, the night of the big Northeast Blackout in the 60's. Does he still preach? Is he still in the Utica area?
I also thank you for an enlightening perspective on Mrs. Alston, and the divisive battle taking place in the congregation. I only know Virginia from a brief meeting at a party at the Radisson, when I was the transportation manager at the OD. Her husband Clarence worked for me, and I always liked and had the utmost respect for him. He was a hard working man, who worked for the school system as a custodian, and then came and delivered bundles for the OD until the wee small hours of the morning. I was always under the impression, reading of Mrs. Alston's exploits and activity, that she was a very civic minded and benevolent lady. Thank you for clearing up that mistaken impression.
It saddens me to reflect back on the loving and warm hearted people that I used to transport on the bus, and think of that congregation being torn my financial divide and political strife that doesn't belong in a church to begin with. It is sad that money and political ambition have infiltrated the house of our Lord.
It is great to see you post. We missed ya when we didn't hear from you for a long time. I hope you birthday was a good one. Drop me an email and fill me in on your activities of late.
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Post by Ralph on May 27, 2008 2:02:39 GMT -5
And therein lies my point. Irregardless of the salary or the vote or whatever....... why would anyone want to stay in a position where they were not wanted. Maybe I am just too old school to understand fighting for something no one wants you to have. Kinda like going to the playground with a brand new ball when you were a kid.........and no one else wants to play.  |
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Post by frankcor on May 28, 2008 14:35:30 GMT -5
I speak regularly with several members of the parish there. They say the judge told the Reverend that the settlement the church offered was fair and it was time to move on.
As in every case, there are two sides to this story. It's unfortunate it had to become the spectacle that it did and that good people's names are being dragged before the public this way.
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Post by jrcummings on Jun 13, 2008 4:09:34 GMT -5
I agree with you 100% Ralph, sometimes it's better (as we say in the Army) draw fire and move out.
Sadly to say Clipper, Rev Upthegrove passed away about 4 or 5 years ago. He was living in the Retirement Community that use to be Midstate skating arena. I'm sure at this point he's turning in his grave.
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Post by Clipper on Jun 13, 2008 11:07:53 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about the Reverend Upthegrove. He was truly a wonderful man of God. Money was the least of HIS priorities. I guess I should have known that he would be gone by now. Now that I stop and think, he was a little older than my mom and dad, and my dad is 84, and my mom died in 2004 at 79. (Shit, I'm getting old!!!!) I was in my 30's when I drove the congregation around on the bus, and now I am 60. I guess he would have to be quite elderly if he were still with us.LOL.
I wish I had known that he was in the nursing home on Herkimer Rd. I lived only a short distance from there before we moved here to Tennessee. I would have enjoyed visiting with him. He was a wonderful and smart man. I don't have to tell you, how many stories he could tell. He was a joy to listen to, both preaching and just talking over coffee at my mom and dad's house. I only heard him preach once. That was at an ecumenical service among all the Utica churches. He was a dynamic speaker.
Hope all is well with you and the family. Pop in and post when ya can. We always miss ya when we don't hear from you. Thanks for what you do for our country, and God bless our troops!
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Post by frankcor on Jun 15, 2008 9:37:13 GMT -5
I agree with you 100% Ralph, sometimes it's better (as we say in the Army) draw fire and move out. Wow, things sure have changed. I never heard anyone in the Army ever suggest it wise to intentionally draw fire. We always kept our heads down.  |
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Post by jrcummings on Jul 4, 2008 7:50:49 GMT -5
I agree with you 100% Ralph, sometimes it's better (as we say in the Army) draw fire and move out. Wow, things sure have changed. I never heard anyone in the Army ever suggest it wise to intentionally draw fire. We always kept our heads down. Sorry I mis-wrote that, It's actually move out and draw fire. It's basically a way for NCO's to say get the out of my face without a soldier crying to IG, EO, and all the other organizations created to stop you from hurting soldier feelings. Can you believe we can't even yell at them or make them do push-ups? I never got that memo though. |
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Post by jrcummings on Jul 4, 2008 7:58:44 GMT -5
Yes Clipper, Rev Upthegrove was a great Pastor, Person and family friend. You want to hear something funny, when I was little I thought he was god because I never saw him leave the church, drive a car or anything. I thought when church was over he put on his white robe, the center piece that held lights and speakers moved and stairs came down for him to take him back to heaven. He did so much for that church, the name should have been The Franklin J. Upthegrove Baptist Church. He was everything a Pastor should be, he got a new church built and paid for, he provided festivals in Cornhill, he started a church day care, he had festivals at the church, he started a meals on wheels program at St. Pauls, he did so many great things for that church and the community and they don't even have a memorial for him, or at least I don't think they do. This other guy is just trying to line his pockets, someone should tell him, this is religion not politics. St. Pauls has contantly been filling size 20 shoes with size 1 feet. One day they'll learn.
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Post by Clipper on Jul 4, 2008 9:19:22 GMT -5
He surely was a great man that left a great legacy of memories to those of us that remember his love of God and his fellow man. Those that have followed him in pastoring his former congregation, have lost sight of God's true lessons, that are SUPPOSED to be taught at St Pauls.
This is exactly why I don't "subscribe" to organized religion or attend any particular church. I have noticed here in the South, that the building fund is the most important issue to be discussed at every service. Not charity, or mission work. The building fund is utmost in it's importance. Each church has to build a bigger and better sanctuary, or have a bigger fellowship hall than the church down the block.
Some folks here brag that their church has the best music, and serves coffee and donuts after every service. Hmmm. How about the best "message" and a "dynamic" preacher, spreading God's word? I can turn on the car radio and stop for coffee and donuts AFTER church!!
I actually had a person call for my dad, when he was living here, wanting to know if he would like to donate $100 towards a new deck on the preacher's house, as a birthday present for the preacher. I told the person calling, that I was dad's power of attorney, and that if he was donating to build any decks, it would be on MY house, where he could at least go out and sit on it, haha!
Religion has gotten lost in the hustle. Too many preachers in modern times, are in it simply as a occupation, and not a vocation. They do it for a salary, and not from a spiritual calling to serve their congregation. Church has become a "business", and it is a business that I don't bother to patronize.
I communicate with MY God everyday of my life. He never has billed me yet, but if he does, I will be glad to send a check. I will make the check out to "God" and put "for spiritual fulfillment services" in the memo block.
Have a good holiday weekend JR. Good to hear from you, as always. Thanks for your service to our country, and on this independence day, I hope everyone takes a minute out of their busy day, to contemplate the sacrifices that have been made to insure that independence. God bless you, and all of our troops.
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Post by dgriffin on Jul 4, 2008 18:06:49 GMT -5
There is probably only one human model for a preacher, the Apostle Paul. He never had his own home, did have a backup trade as a tent maker, was often in prison for his beliefs, never compromised and probably wouldn't have known what a deck was, much less a building fund. A church building taller than the head of a donkey and anything of gold would have seemed profane to him. Sermons from Dave are free!  |
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Post by Clipper on Jul 4, 2008 19:31:42 GMT -5
Had a backup trade as a tentmaker? Hmmm I wonder if the tentmaker that used to make my shirts before I lost weight was a descendant!
Seriously Dave. You make good points. Jesus taught from a rock, and from steps of buildings. I do recall once when he entered a building. He went into the temple to run out the money changers. He also was in the "upper room" for the last supper.
Churches tend to spend all the money on ornate things, and little on comfort. If I were to build a church, the first thing I would do would be to install comfortable seating, instead of hard wooden pews. If you want to preach to me for an hour or so, at least let me sit where my ass won't get sore after the first 15 minutes.
As far as the rest goes, we don't need gold chalices, gold leaf on woodwork, ornate paint, marble steps and columns, statues, a fancy pulpit. All that is needed is a roof, seating, and a podium for the preacher to rest his bible and his elbows upon. We don't need carillons and pipe organs. A good electronic organ with a good sound system will do.
Put a roof over a podium for a preacher to preach from, and give us comfortable seats. That is all that is needed for a church. Give the pastor a salary,a ranch house with 3 bedrooms and a study to do his church office work in, and he should be comfortable.Give the rest to charity.
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