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Post by dan on May 13, 2008 20:27:56 GMT -5
I posted this on the OD story. I'd be interested in conversation on the topic. Larry, your opinion as a Utica politician will be appreciated. www.uticaod.com/news/x2118736208/Acacia-Village-residents-to-vote-on-county-shift "I have been following this subject for almost four years now, ever since the issue was first proposed by the former administration. From the very beginning there was very little “win-win” that the city of Utica could claim from this deal. This arrangement could force the taxpayers of Utica and ultimately all of Oneida County to pay additional taxes to offer services and protection to an area larger than Proctor Park that will be contributing a grand total of zero taxes. This is a misguided attempt by the ELECTED officials of the city of Utica to curry the favor of a few well-placed local managers at the Masonic Home. It should be asked upfront what the Homes contribution to the city is and will be. There has been speculation that as soon as the deal is done that the Home will begin a major building project. Let me point out that under the current terms, this would still be a tax-free facility, but would also draw off of much needed city and county services. There will be water and sewer, both of which are in short supply, and may I point out, that other areas have been on a waiting list for not years, but decades to receive water. There are wells in the West Frankfort area that are so polluted with sulpher that the water is literally undrinkable. Will the water that is supplied to the expansion be extended to the poor individuals that have been without proper drinking water for years? I think not. City services are already extended to the breaking point and a few individuals have decided to boost their positions on the backs of the Utica taxpayer. Politics notwithstanding the legalities of this endeavor are still questionable. This would set a precedent not only in the counties affected, but also throughout the state. Never in the history of this state has a municipality tried to annex across another county’s border. This opens a Pandora’s box of possibilities for cities, counties and boroughs to file the necessary paperwork and begin proceedings to take over the already predeveloped spoils of another municipality’s hard work. Utica did not develop the Masonic Home. Truth be known, most of the Home originally was in Herkimer County. My Great-Aunt worked on the farm in the 30’s. The current building projects have only occurred in the last 20 to 30 years. The structures that were in Herkimer County have been demolished and most of that land lay vacant now. I don’t in principal disagree with the Home residing in one municipality or another. I understand the concept of consolidated services, but I question the way this is happening. This is surely a loss for Herkimer County and the Town of Frankfort and it is a loss for the city of Utica taxpayer. Masonic Home’s wins are few. The services they are provided with from Herkimer County (fire and police to name just two) are as professional and quick to respond as the city could provide. I’ve seen the documents provided by both sides and the coverage is equal. If they are looking to streamline their governmental contacts, why hasn’t the possibility of annexation by Herkimer County and the Town of Frankfort been discussed? As it is, in a very short time, the fate of the taxpayers of Utica and Oneida county will be decided by 75 individuals, not the people that will have to foot the bill. The vote should be an Oneida County/Herkimer County vote, not just the people that are living in the Acacia Village Complex who will not be contributing through taxation."
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Post by clarencebunsen on May 13, 2008 21:21:09 GMT -5
A tax-free facility, providing a number of good jobs (which may or may not off set the services required) and expanding in the Mohawk Valley. Sounds a lot like the OIN.
If it's a loss for Frankfort & Herkimer Co., why isn't it a gain for Utica & Oneida Co?
The bad blood started when Herkimer Co. tried to add Acacia Village to the tax rolls. Can you really blame them for wanting to be part of Oneida Co?
Who are these "well-placed local managers" of whom you speak? I don't know of any of them who are particularly political.
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Post by dan on May 13, 2008 21:41:37 GMT -5
clarencebunsen,
I'll have to look up the administrators name, I'll have to dig for it.
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Post by clarencebunsen on May 13, 2008 21:49:40 GMT -5
Bill Luley (sp) Met him, didn't seem to be particularly political.
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Post by dan on May 13, 2008 21:58:08 GMT -5
Just going from memory I believe he had a connection with Mr Julian, and an aid of his was somehow connected with Russ Brooks. Again going from memory I thought most of this started from conversations with Chief Brooks. I'll admit, you caught me off guard with your reference to Mr Kinney trying to add Acacia Village to the tax roles. After reading that I've got e-mails out to 3 different people. I hope I didn't miss something as simple as that. It wouldn't suprise me, the missteps coming from Town of Frankfort are legendary. I'll post any info I get back tomorrow.
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Post by dan on May 14, 2008 6:15:02 GMT -5
Just to add 2 more cents before work.........
My concerns are twofold. First that this action could be used locally as an example if Utica wants to absorb desirerable property from other communities. What happens when Utica decides it's in the communitys best interest to annex parts of Deerfield, Schuyler or New York Mills? What if Marcy invests in a chip plant only to lose it due to the arguement that "they are only a VOLUNTEER fire department"? Everyone should be aware of the long term consequences of setting this example. The other concern I have is the extension of already thin resources that have been promised to other municipalities and now a late-comer will be getting those resources. Yes, I mean water. Water districts have been promised in at least 3 or 4 other communities for years and now a non-taxable entity will benefit from a sweet deal. I agree there were missteps with the Town of Frankfort administration, but that was a non-starter from the beginning. Masonic Home knew they were not going to get taxed so any threat from a lunkhead like Joe Kinney wasn't going anywhere.
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Post by wilum47 on May 14, 2008 7:47:46 GMT -5
they are only a VOLUNTEER fire department
That same volunteer fire department covers SUNYiT quite well along with all those oil storage facilities with mutual aide coverage already established.
That excuse could be shot down quite well.
Member, Maynard Fire Department MARCY
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Post by Swimmy on May 14, 2008 9:40:27 GMT -5
Clarence, The analogy you draw with OIN is in error. The OIN issues are much more complex than a few politically connected corrupt officials trying to line their pockets. The OIN is an Indian Tribe, recognized by Congress. That makes them a sovereignty, very similar to a state. By that virtue alone, the OIN does not have to pay state taxes. The OIN still pays federal taxes and collects state taxes from non-Indian employees. The problem is that for the longest time, everyone believed that all the property that OIN re-acquired returned to reservation/Indian territory status. The Supreme Court, while not denying that the land is Indian Territory said that OIN could not re-assert its tax exempt status over those lands without putting the land into trust. The land was bought by NYS in direct violation of federal law, including a U.S. Supreme Court decision that determined only the Federal Government had the power to deal in real property transactions involving Indian Tribes. Now, the OIN, per the City of Sherrill v Oneida Indian Nation, made the trust application. But if the casino was built on the remaining 32-acre reservation land that NYS has not illegally purchased, there would be no issue. But that is irrelevant, if anyone reads the FEIS, they would learn that many of the "questions unanswered" are in fact answered in great detail. They would sit here, as I often do, laughing at pundits like elizabeth cooper and idiots like dave townsend or dave vickers. Unlike the Masonic issues here, admittedly I'm not as familiar with, the OIN offers many great benefits for the area. They contract with local municipalities for the services they receive. They helped Verona fix its water problems. At one time, they donated via Silver Covenant Grants more money than the school districts would have received via taxes. The OIN is different that NYS citizens because they are a sovereign people. You can't just tax a sovereign people, it's the equivalent of NJ taxing us for using their roads. The Supreme Court declared that unconstitutional because it interferes with interstate commerce. People asking where OIN's army is only demonstrate a clear lack of understand and a desire to remain stupid on the issues. The best analogy is that OIN is equivalent to a state. Obviously there is more to it than that, but I don't have enough space to repeat what I've written in the now non-existent disgrace forums. OIN has demonstrated -- repeatedly -- how beneficial to the area it can be by bringing in top-end entertainment, a PGA golf tournament, 5-star rated restaurants and hotels, 5,000+ jobs, re-investing in the local economy before hiring outside the mohawk valley. NYS state -- by contrast -- has increased its stranglehold grip on businesses with absurd taxes, seen an exodus of upstate youth -- myself included -- to places that are more business friendly, lost over 200,000 jobs, can't control agencies it created, e.g. New York Transit Authority as of recent, had its ceo involved in federal criminal activities, failed to address the very concerns it has with OIN that New Hartford is doing right now, and many more failures. New Hartford is developing without following state law, ignoring federal law, but because they're making the politicians rich off my taxpaying back, no one cares. There is something wrong with this picture. Unlike the state or the masonic issues here, OIN has kept everything in the open and is responsive to inquiries about their activities. As Dan points out, there are questionable acts going on. OIN has promised to address local concerns about the environment, etc. Mr. Arcuri's dilatory and unprofessional stunts down in D.C. are claimed to have been done in the interest of negotiation, but since that bullshit, neither he nor any other political blowhart has spoken with OIN and set up further meetings. Yet OIN is at the table waiting, where are these elected "representatives" who claim to want to negotiate?! I'm done hijacking this thread for now, but I hope you understand my point, that drawing a connection to the OIN is in error. My choice of analogy would be Preswick Glenn, that would have gone through but for the work of people like Strikeslip and the Concerned Citizens Organization.
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Post by Swimmy on May 14, 2008 10:10:52 GMT -5
Just to be sure, I'm not calling you stupid or any other derogatory name. I am respectfully disagreeing with your position about OIN being similar to the Masonic situation. My comments about idiots or stupidity refer to other people on other forums, e.g. the syracuse forums, and the absurdity of their comments.
I have nothing but respect for your opinion and I was not attempting to insult you in such a manner.
After thinking about my post, I wanted to clarify that I was not personally attacking you in any manner. I apologize in advance if that was your perception.
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Post by dan on May 14, 2008 16:57:39 GMT -5
wilum47,
I expected to get a rise out of you. I don't know you personally, but I knew you were with Maynard. I'm hoping you didn't misunderstand my post and take it I was arguing AGAINST volunteer departments, quite the opposite. We can all put our run time records up against Utica and match or beat them.
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Post by dan on May 14, 2008 17:05:04 GMT -5
Hey Swimmy, time to put the education to work. I'm hoping for some free legal OPINION, not advice. Please look at what was posted back to me on topix.com in regard to the crossing county lines argument.
" Constitutional & Statutory Authority__________ Counties, Cities, Towns and Villages– Authorized. Requires the filing of a petition by at least 20 percent of the qualified voters or by the owners of a majority of the assessed value of real estate within the territory to be annexed. The annexing municipality must have a public hearing to determine whether annexation is in the overall public interest. The boards of each affected local government must approve annexation by a majority. If one board fails to approve, there is a procedure for judicial review. Once approved by the boards, the proposition must be submitted for election by the voters in the territory to be annexed. [Constitution, Article IX,§ 1(d); General Municipal Law,§§ 702, 703] Restrictions and prohibitions on annexation.[General Municipal Law,§ 716] Counties - Legislature may divide county or alter its boundaries.[County Law,§ 50] School Districts – Provides for effect on certain school districts involved in municipal annexation.[General Municipal Law,§715] Selected Court Cases__________ City of Utica v. Town of Frankfort, 2006, 34 A.D.3d 1323, 824 N.Y.S.2d 852. City’s annexation of property from town and county was warranted, where annexation was in the public interest. The annexation would give property owner full-time police and fire protection, and would improve the owner’s ability to update healthcare "
Thanks for your opinion.
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Post by clarencebunsen on May 14, 2008 18:50:54 GMT -5
Swimmy, I went back through your post & couldn't find anything even remotely offensive.
I may admire the OIN somewhat less than you do and the MCC community somewhat more, but I appreciate that both organizations provide local employment. My objection is really to a tax structure that has limited employment opportunities throughout the state. I did not intend to take a "shot" at the OIN but it was the first thing that came to mind as an example of an employer not hamstrung by taxes.
I didn't see anything in Dan's post alleging particularly nefarious on the part of the MCC. Some employees have moved between public & private employment (the former security at MCC) but that happens all the time with many organizations.
I spent a few minutes this morning trying to find a list of the MCC directors but failed (I know I have it in a pile of papers somewhere in my computer room). Since the MCC is funded by Masons statewide most of the directors are from out of the area. I still don't see much MCC involvement in Utica politics.
Precedent: Utica previously annexed the northern portion of the Town of New Hartford and the area known as North Utica.
Many of the changes of the Masonic Home were the result of the transition from an orphanage with a working farm for food to a Nursing Home.
Now that I have been nice, how about something really inflamatory. Would a vote for annexation be an indication that the time for Herkimer Co. has past and dissolution should be considered? Just the savings on a county jail would be significant.
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Post by dan on May 14, 2008 19:52:10 GMT -5
I was mistaken when I said that this move would set a precident because annexing across county lines had never been tried in NYS before. There was an example set about 160 years ago involving NYC and the city of Pelham. I still maintain that it doesn't make it any more right or proper. I'm not disputing the NH and North Utica absorptions but can you provide some dates or other info? These two examples still fall into the boundaries of within the county, not extending into other counties, and they are both examples of annexation of TAXABLE land, not property that will never return the investment spent on annexing untaxable land. Should the taxpayers of Utica and Oneida county be forced to foot the bill for more charity when the services that are rightfully thiers are streched so thin? Regarding the question of the merging Herkimer and Oneida county I think that is a valid topic to explore, but I think the jury is out as to which county Herkimer county would court. My money is on Hamilton county.
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Post by Ralph on May 15, 2008 2:01:28 GMT -5
Just as an addendum to this. Consider that if the Home were to be annexed, even though they do get adequate fire protection from Herkimer County, UFD service would substantially lower their insurance because of the fire rating.
And as pointed out, the water issues also come into play as well.
What does Utica gain by this? Nothing in reality.
I sat in on the Council meetings when this was considered several years ago. It was quite obvious at that time that there was no "pluses" involved in it for the City at all.
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Post by clarencebunsen on May 15, 2008 5:55:09 GMT -5
Dan, Sorry, I can't provide proper sourcing. It was in historical reading I did when I first moved to area 20+ years ago. One general topic was the growth of Utica from Old Ft. Schuyler to it's present boundries. If I can come up with a source, I'll pass it on.
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