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Post by gearofzanzibar on Dec 10, 2009 14:35:36 GMT -5
I do agree with Clipper, no free lunch. But there needs to be sliding rates in place that people can afford while moving up in the world. I think a free lunch is exactly what would bring down the cost of health care. You want providers to compete on price? Allow a 95% tax credit for every dollar spent on treatment. Then make the credits tradeable. Providers will be lining up to serve the poor and the chronically ill. |
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Post by gski on Dec 10, 2009 14:45:39 GMT -5
I guess one of the issues that I have with the versions of proposed healthcare changes, and there's a multitude of them, is after having read a bunch of what's in them, I end up going, "huh?!".
When they all read like tax law or a combination of tax law and total BS, it makes you just say you're kidding right?
Unfortunately, I still want to see them fix what's there first and then say, ok, that's done now let's expand upon it.
Instead it's like the guy who's had 4 or 5 dwi's or drug convictions saying, "I won't do it again, trust me".
People don't trust those in power right now to not only listen to what the people are saying, but to actually do the right thing.
Really, if we step back and look at what's being proposed and the, "gotta do it now" attitude, ask why, what, and when.
Especially look at the when. When is this going to take affect? Ummm...4 years.
When would we start paying for it? Ummm...supposedly as soon as it passes.
So I guess my question is this:
If we all go to our local bank and tell them we want a million dollars, we're already deep in the red, we want it now, and oh by the way, if they give it to us, they won't see a dime for...say 4 years...and they can't charge us interest on it. What do you think they'd say to us?
Most likely, aside from calling the cops and asking us to blow into something, they'd think we were nuts.
Isn't this exactly what we're being told right now? We need to pay for something, additional, that we won't see any benefit for, it might even cost us more for insurance because of it, and yes, we will pay more in taxes. Oh yeah, dr's and hospitals will get paid less too.
So...where do we sign up? Maybe we should just ship Congress a bunch of straightjackets instead!
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Post by stoney on Dec 10, 2009 15:07:40 GMT -5
" Because that's exactly where this monstrosity leads- to a jail cell."
Where are you getting this info from? Sarah Palen?
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Post by stoney on Dec 10, 2009 15:09:41 GMT -5
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Post by bobbbiez on Dec 10, 2009 15:11:18 GMT -5
 No, you're mine since I'm older. ;D
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Post by Clipper on Dec 10, 2009 15:15:44 GMT -5
You are missing a point here Bobbbiez. It is not that reform is not needed. It is that the rush to get it done is ridiculous and the games that are being played to garner the votes is sheer coercion.
And NO, everyone DOESN'T deserve healthcare. Most people work for it, and pay for it, and those that don't work but could, don't deserve it. People that are needy or are working but the price is too high are the people that should be covered. Not a few million illegal aliens, and all of our crack heads and bums that sit on their asses doing their drugs and bangin out kids.
There IS a legitimate need for healthcare for some people. I have a problem with a government program that is going to give it to EVERYBODY, and some of the everybody is young, able bodied, and milking the disability system with a fake back problem, or just plain lazy and drawing welfare.
When they find a way to give it only to the DESERVING, I will be the first one to kick in. Until then, I worked for my money and I don't care to be forced to spend it on paying for health insurance for some frigging lazy assed bum, while he plays video games and sucks on a budweiser, bought by selling his food stamps to a neighbor.
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Post by stoney on Dec 10, 2009 15:21:12 GMT -5
I don't believe that is true about illegal aliens, Clip.
"I have a problem with a government program that is going to give it to EVERYBODY, and some of the everybody is young, able bodied, and milking the disability system with a fake back problem, or just plain lazy and drawing welfare. "
The system definitely needs to be tightened to begin with, Clip, regardless if the reform goes through or not.
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Post by Clipper on Dec 10, 2009 15:31:06 GMT -5
I hate to sound crass, or more crass than usual  stoney, but The welfare system is screwed up. Yes, the healthcare issue is important, but before we pass laws that simply add to the cost and the problems, straighten out the mess we have. I am a firm believer that welfare recipients should be dealt with by drug testing monthly, forcing them to go on job interviews, just as unemployment recipients normally are encouraged to do, and by simply ignoring those that are hard core and brazen in sitting back and sucking on the tit of society. It will be one hell of alot easier and cheaper to bury them than to feed them for a lifetime. Knock off all the freebies for the chronic freeloaders and only care for the disabled or truly disadvantaged, and it would be amazing how many people would have the good old yankee ingenuity to find a way to feed themselves and keep a roof over their head. I am sorry, but there is work for those that want to work. I was a fully qualified machinist, heavy equipment operator and truck driver, but one winter I found myself unemployed. I spent the better part of that winter, standing in a snowbank at Universal Waste and Metal, cutting up cars with an acetylene torch in the below zero weather. It fed my family and paid my rent. |
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Post by gearofzanzibar on Dec 10, 2009 15:43:08 GMT -5
" Because that's exactly where this monstrosity leads- to a jail cell."Where are you getting this info from? Sarah Palen? Are you totally oblivious of the penalties being proposed in the "reform" that you support? Seriously? Failure to purchase the government mandated insurance results in a fine, levied as a tax penalty. Failure to pay the penalty results in prosecution for tax evasion with the result of criminal penalties and/or jail time. You weren't aware of this? You're endorsing putting people behind bars for the crime of...doing nothing. It's a fantastic expansion of Federal power that goes against everything this nation was founded upon, and you support it? |
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Post by dgriffin on Dec 10, 2009 15:56:22 GMT -5
"C. your medical care will still be the best in the world -- for a while"Dave, it is NOT the best in the world NOW!!!! We're ranked 12th or 15th, I believe."The Guberment broke it, they will never fix it…..only make it worse."Ralph, I believe the government along with the insurance companies "broke it". But I do believe it can be fixed. Let's let them at least try instead of knocking it down before it's even built!! Actually 37th, according to the World Health Organization. But there are various studies, colored with their own views. Here's an interesting article at the NYTimes: www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html?pagewanted=printDoesn't put the US in a good light, but you can see why "Who has the best health care?" is debatable ... to me, at least ... when such aspects as "who has insurance coverage," "is coverage fair?" and "healthy living" are factored in. Bottom line for me is where would I want to be sick. |
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Post by gearofzanzibar on Dec 10, 2009 16:02:50 GMT -5
There IS a legitimate need for healthcare for some people. I have a problem with a government program that is going to give it to EVERYBODY, and some of the everybody is young, able bodied, and milking the disability system with a fake back problem, or just plain lazy and drawing welfare. The current Senate proposal forces the young, able-bodied, and productively employed members of society to pay massively inflated insurance rates to support the undeniable and limitless costs of the middle-aged and elderly. Or, you know, go to jail. |
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Post by rodwilson on Dec 10, 2009 16:04:12 GMT -5
Anybody that for a second thinks that this is actually about people is nuts. This is MORE legislation and oversight for the sake of profit by the system itself and for big pharm. 75% of health care costs are induced BY the government's never ending legislation IN SUPPORT of big business. See the food industry, pharmaceutical industry, alcohol industry, tobacco industry... I know most of the members here are readers but I HIGHLY recommend 3 films. The Corporation www.thecorporation.com/Food Inc www.foodincmovie.com/Selling Sickness icarusfilms.com/new2005/sell.htmlThere are tons of other great reads as well. Bottom line is that we as a government fail to address the very nature of the issues and offer real solutions. We simply allow and support profit by big corps regardless of the toll it takes on our society. It also allows for a bloated and over-exaggerated and overextend economy. |
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Post by dgriffin on Dec 10, 2009 16:15:26 GMT -5
Ahem. I'd like to say that the last person to spend time in prison for tax evasion was Al Capone, but I know it isn't true. Still, except for the big hitters, I doubt anyone will go to jail for not purchasing health insurance. I take Gear's point, though, if he's pointing to what government coercion could become. And I have some advice we should all take to heart about the government running our lives. "Get used to it." We're going to have universal health care and we're all going to pay for it. I stopped arguing about the advisability of it long ago (I think), because this government will never allow ANY group within its borders ... whether an economic group, color group, or nationality group ... to become disenfranchised. It's too dangerous and the government knows it. Therefore, I conclude that this government will never cede to its citizens control of their own destiny. Not in my lifetime, nor in that of my grandchildren. That's a sorry thought, I know, but I can't come to any other logical conclusion.
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Post by gearofzanzibar on Dec 10, 2009 16:16:47 GMT -5
The real tragedy of this boondoggle is that it totally avoids any actual health care reform. All it does is turn traditional insurance into a government supported entitlement program. There's nothing there that actually cuts costs.
Why isn't there a mandated, open source medical records standard?
Why isn't there an open source drug and vaccine formulary?
Why isn't there an open source standard for computerized medical expert systems?
There are hundreds, if not thousands of proposals that would revolutionize medicine without costing a dime or violating constitutional principles.
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Post by rodwilson on Dec 10, 2009 16:54:31 GMT -5
C'mon Gear, don't you know that standards are only for places where things work? Besides, that'd be too much give and take and require negotiation by the major corporate players.
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OH BULLSH*T! at least Obama is trying to do something for the people who really need and can't afford proper health care. Maybe it's not all to your liking but it has to be done. Has nothing to do with who is President. 
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