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Post by Swimmy on Feb 24, 2008 10:46:05 GMT -5
Leaders debate: Negotiate or fightIf Elizabeth Cooper was an actual reporter who actually knew the meaning of investigative journalism, she would have asked the following follow-up question, "It is interesting that you believe NY's status as one of the original 13 colonies preempts federal law. What law, U.S. Supreme Court decision, or agency regulation do you rely on for this belief?" Because the answer, to the best of my knowledge, is NONE! I've asked him and Vickers that same question, of course while trying to stifle my laughter. Neither of them came up with an answer and just repeated their answer. So much for intelligent reporting.
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Post by frankcor on Feb 24, 2008 11:31:54 GMT -5
All right, swimmy! Thinking like a reporter!
The anti-Indian people (how's that for spin?) must be working off some old talking points. I think the final Environmental Impact Statement did a pretty credible job of responding to the constitutionality issue, including Townsend's original 13-colonies argument. Maybe some of them should actually read the EIS. They might come up with newer anti-arguments.
I actually finished the 49-page executive summary (I like to pretend I'm an executive). I'm working on the responses to public comments now.
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Post by Clipper on Feb 24, 2008 11:36:58 GMT -5
Damn Frank, did you take speed reading or stay up all night? I am still reading and trying to digest and comprehend the contents of the executive summary. LOL
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Post by frankcor on Feb 24, 2008 11:56:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I actually did take a speed reading course while in the in chemical corps. training. Army field manuals are designed to be "sped read." Like most stuff written by attorneys, the EIS isn't that amenable to speed reading. I was up pretty late last night If you want to focus on the good parts, I suggest reading the analysis of Options A (original request), G (do nothing -- should be called Option Townsend/Vickers) and then I (the recommendation). The others are variations between A and G.
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Post by rrogers40 on Feb 24, 2008 12:32:28 GMT -5
I'm not too familiar with this so I've got to ask: How can Oneida County be loosing tax money on land that never had anyone really pay taxes on it to begin with? You can't loose money that you never had to begin with.
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Post by frankcor on Feb 24, 2008 12:42:08 GMT -5
Bingo, rrogers!
People like Vickers and Dave Townsend seem to want to go back to the good old days when the Oneidas had sovereignty over 32 acres, had frequent run-ins with law enforcement and were essentially wards of the government. That parcel of land that their proposals would drive out of the casino business was unimproved agricultural land just a few decades ago.
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Post by Ralph on Feb 24, 2008 12:52:33 GMT -5
Keep in mind that a lot of this land was purchased by the OIN and was at one time on the tax rolls
When the smaller cities in Oneida County (and others) receive aid from the State every year, it is based on the total tax assessment of those areas. In other words if Sherrill has a total taxable area of $X, then they receive a percentage of that back in State Aid…….regardless if that particular $X amount is actually collected or not. So the amount they are presently receiving takes into account all the “taxable land” on the rolls. The get their percentage and if there is a difference in collected/uncollected taxes, the State taxpayers wind up making up the difference. If the lands in question are put into trust, the total assessment will go down (as those parcels will no longer be on the tax rolls) and consequently so will their percentage of State Aid. Of course the difference between collected/uncollected taxes would go down as well, so the difference the State would have to make up out of our pockets should go down too.
We would more than likely never see that happen though!
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Post by Swimmy on Feb 24, 2008 14:50:24 GMT -5
Well, the land the OIN purchased was originally part of their 300,000 acre reservation plot that the State agreed to give them. Federal Indian Law has mandated that any land sale or purchase involving an American Indian tribe must have Congressional consent. Most of the land bought back by the state violated this provision. That's the basis of the original land claim suits. Since then, most people agreed that any land bought back by the OIN was subject to its sovereign domain. The land in question was taxed as unimproved vacant land and no concern was ever recognized over whether the taxes were collected because it did not generate much money in the first place.
Then the Bingo Hall and then the Casino came into play. With the massive amounts of income, the state and local officials wanted some of that pie, but screwed themselves out of the pie with the compact. Vickers and others attacked the compact, which was originally declared unconstitutional because it was never ratified by the state legislature, even though it was a mistake on Cuomo's behalf. Since then, the BIA and DIA held that the compact remained valid in any case for the purposes of the IGRA. Since then, at the federal level, the courts have indirectly upheld the compact's validity.
Then in 2005, the City of Sherrill U.S. Sup. Ct. decision held that the land was not tax exempt and that the OIN had to pay property taxes on their re-acquired lands unless they placed them into federal trust (something cooper is still idiot enough to "think" is OIN's attempt to "effectively circumvent the Supreme Court's decision"). So now, the lands are being taxed with a casino on them, but federal law prohibits the state or county from taxing the land as a gaming facility, just an improved lot (I forget where I read this decision, but the county and state were slammed big time for ignoring this federal provision). This substantially reduces the amount of taxes the state could charge because it can no longer tax based on the land's use, just that it's an improved lot.
So, while I understand your point, Ralph, I have to disagree. The state and local officials are crying over money they never had to begin with. You can't lose money you never had.
I have yet to read the decision, and I intend to this coming weekend.
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Post by frankcor on Feb 24, 2008 15:53:19 GMT -5
We should check the assertion that land put into trust will not count towards a jurisdiction's assessed value total. Back when I paid attention to such matters, Rome had over 60% of it's assessed value exempt from taxation. One parcel happened to be Griffiss Air Force Base. It had the largest assessed value of any other property in the city but of course, was untaxed.
Swimmy, Cooper's selective citing of the Supreme Court ruling stood out as disingenuous to me, too. I think you've done a good job of summarizing the trail that has brought us to the point we are at today.
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Post by Ralph on Feb 24, 2008 16:07:04 GMT -5
Swimmy, I understand what you are saying, I didn't delve as deeply as you into the overall way it was/wasn't taxed, but I do see where it has been blown out of proportion after reading your info.
I really wasn't trying to make a point on that end so much as to relate how the State Aid is determined.
But on a side note I would like to see the assessment of some of the towns to see if they have inflated the OIN's land for tax purposes or have followed the formula you have. Because if they have artificially inflated it, then they are getting more aid than they are really entitled too............and it is coming out of our pockets as well.
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Post by Clipper on Feb 24, 2008 16:13:55 GMT -5
It looks to me like Townsend and the others opposed to the OIN, are going to be losers in the end. The law seems to be on the side of the nation and it becomes more and more obvious or at least somewhat evident, that they should have negotiated with the OIN instead of fighting them. If they continue to battle over the term "tax" they will end up without anything. The payments in leiu of taxes, and the donations to community are not mandatory and could stop if it is proven that the OIN owes the towns and county nothing.
Would it not be more productive to ally themselves with the nation instead of opposing them?
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Post by Swimmy on Feb 24, 2008 16:18:26 GMT -5
I have brought elizabeth cooper's poor comprehension skills to her attention, and even quoted the exact paragraph that tells OIN how to proceed. Foolishly, she still insists that despite what 9 highly intelligent justices have to say, her version is correct. Under her silly rationale, if the application is denied then they would have to pay taxes and their then refusal to do so would be ignoring a supreme court decision. A pretty far-fetched set rationale to say that the land-into-trust application is an attempt to circumvent a Sup. Ct. decision.
Several of the issues the government lackeys are crying about right now can easily be solved by negotiation. However, our government should refresh its understanding of the verb "to negotiate." It does NOT mean you come to the table with a set of terms and it is either accepted or litigation will ensue. That's NOT how to negotiate. 1. The "checker boarding of jurisdictions" can be easily solved by OIN granting NYS and local officials to enter the land while pursuing people who violated the law off of the trust land and since transgreesed onto trust land. I imagine there is a similar compromise that exists right now with reservation land v. non-reservation land. 2. the "economic fallout" would be lessened if the state accepted OIN's original offer to pay 15% of its profits to the state. Instead, NY wants the same amount it charges VD, which as you all know has recently been reduced to keep the racino in business. OIN has traditionally given local schools a Silver Covenant Grant. The state could negotiate an agreement with OIN that would make this grant permanent in nature and allow for more schools to receive the grant money. OIN has contracted to use many services of the public infrastructure, contrary to what many UCE members would have you believe. Keep this idea open, and allow them to maintain the infrastructures that are used primarily by patrons who use those portions of the public infrastructure to access OIN factilities. As for this thruway notion, negotiate with OIN to allow the state to keep its exits there.
The OIN has routinely demonstrated its desire to cooperate and work with the community in helping to revitalize the depressed area. I think it's about time our government starts to cooperate in return. I've written this to my representatives, but I have not received any replies. Instead, I read Townsend's threat to sue the state to collect the sales taxes. Send all the state officials back to elementary school so they can learn the definition of negotiation. Maybe then they'll realize how wrong they are and that all of this can easily be resolved by REAL negotiations.
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Post by Swimmy on Feb 24, 2008 16:34:54 GMT -5
Fair enough, Ralph. I just wanted to provide more insight to how the lands have been taxed and why it has become a problem of late that OIN does not pay taxes. When OIN members were poor and on welfare, no one cared that they did not pay taxes. There was no notion of a "level playing field". The state is starting to realize, however slowly or minutely, that it is the reason cny is so depressed. If it relinquished much of its excessive taxes, this state would quickly return to the Empire State is was known for all these years.
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Post by Swimmy on Feb 24, 2008 16:39:45 GMT -5
Would it not be more productive to ally themselves with the nation instead of opposing them? You would think so. But we are talking about the nation's most defunct state government. I don't think they have the competence to figure out such a simple concept. We are quick to give companies like Oneida Limited all sorts of tax breaks, New Hartford School District is willing to violate state law to fund the expansion of a road to benefit businesses and accept payments in lieu of taxes that are substantially less than what the actual taxes would be. But when it comes to OIN, our racist colors shine through brilliantly.
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Post by Ralph on Feb 24, 2008 16:50:16 GMT -5
Would it not be more productive to ally themselves with the nation instead of opposing them? You would think so. But we are talking about the nation's most defunct state government. I don't think they have the competence to figure out such a simple concept. We are quick to give companies like Oneida Limited all sorts of tax breaks, New Hartford School District is willing to violate state law to fund the expansion of a road to benefit businesses and accept payments in lieu of taxes that are substantially less than what the actual taxes would be. But when it comes to OIN, our racist colors shine through brilliantly. You said it all right there!!!!
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