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Post by tanouryjr on Nov 27, 2008 11:59:39 GMT -5
Great post Swimmy. I guess I opened myself up for that one, lol. Good point about the whole circumstantial v. direct evidence arguement. Clearly you will make a fine lawyer.
I guess I was trying to dance around directly saying what lucy said so well. Knowing/learning many of the facts about this case and people that were close to it at the time, clearly we had an overzealous D.A. that needed a conviction. We also had some testimony that needs to be scrutinized. In my opinion, and many others, the kid was railroaded. Unfortunately politics and personal agendas all too often get in the way of justice.
For example, I can't stand when a D.A. gloats about having a 98% conviction rate. From everything I know, and have learned about the justice system; the whole point is to seek the TRUTH. Therefore, I would be more concerned with my "truth rate" than my "Conviction rate." As long as the truth came out 100% of the time, i wouldn't care if my "conviction rate" was 20%. But I guess I'm just a young idealist.
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Post by bobbbiez on Nov 27, 2008 23:23:56 GMT -5
 Swimmy, many of the circumstantial evidence you mentioned can be easily planted to convict someone and that has taken place in many, many cases. If you classify DNA results as circumstantial evidence that's fine, but it's the only one I feel I can put any trust in. "Unfortunate" that the system failed to bring out the truth until now?" No Swimmy it's not "unfortunate" in Barnes's case, it's a crime! I believe this boy was railroaded to protect the real killer and I hope in a short time this will be proven so Dave and others can ease up their worries about the complete innocence of this boy. I hope more for this boy's sake the real killer is finally brought to justice and all facts of this case is finally brought out to the public so this boy can live out what's left of his life in peace. Like I stated before to many it's just a number but to Barnes and his family it was 19 long years without him being able to sit at the table with his family on days like this Thanksgiving day. This was a crime to both families in now having to relive the tradegy both have had to endure. My sympathy and prayers goes out to both and I hope for both, justice will be served soon.
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Post by Ralph on Nov 28, 2008 4:03:26 GMT -5
I think that the saddest part of this is that he lost what I would consider the most important 20 years of his life. These are the years when most people form lasting relationships; marry, start families, secure their place in the workforce and began working with a decent retirement in mind.
The years when one buys a home and begins establishing themselves in the community, putting their kids into and through school and looking forward to enjoying their grandchildren to come as well as each other.
These are the years that can never be replaced, never compensated for, no matter how much money can be thrown at him.
As much as we have faith in the criminal justice system, what both Larry and Swimmy add is true.
Just what is evidence though? Granted there are hard “facts” that can be brought forth, such as direct evidence. But so much is circumstantial, and in the end circumstantial evidence is relegated to really nothing more than an opinion. Public thought is an opinion as well, and in turn so is media information….…true or false. It leaves an impression on prospective jurors no matter how much they profess to be objective.
It is cases like this that are just so very sad.
But as been stated countless times before, though as flawed as it is, we still have what I consider to be the fairest justice system in the world.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 4:40:40 GMT -5
I remember this case & I always had a gut feeling that the kid was railroaded. There was little evidence from the get-go, but the jury convicted him anyway. Sadly, too often jurors are out for vengeance & will many times believe whatever the DA says. I think that's what happened here. Barnes went to trial almost 2 years form when it happened. I think the DA's office wanted this case cleared & a conviction. And Barnes paid the price. I hope McNamara does the right thing & dismisses the charges against Mr. Barnes once & for all, so he doesn't have this hanging over his head in the coming months. It's a good thing that Barnes had a family that wouldn't give up. I wonder how many other innocent people are rotting in prison for crimes they didn't convict because they don't have anyone on the outside advocating for them.
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Post by dgriffin on Nov 28, 2008 8:06:37 GMT -5
I believe this boy was railroaded to protect the real killer and I hope in a short time this will be proven so Dave and others can ease up their worries about the complete innocence of this boy. Bobbbiez, I'm assuming he's innocent and therefore I'm happy for Steven and his family. I will mention that I didn't come to the topic of DNA Exoneration with an ax to grind. I simply wondered about it and reviewed the web pages of the Innocence Project, where I began to see trends which made me wonder even more. But I posted all of that back in May and referenced it above. |
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Post by bobbbiez on Nov 28, 2008 23:01:49 GMT -5
Dave, I fully understand your position on this. I stated, I'm in hopes that the real killer is brought to justice so Barnes can live the rest of his life in peace without people "wondering" if he is really innocent. Unless the justice system, now, does a proper job and finally brings the killer to justice then I'm afraid Barnes will always have this hanging over his head and I'm sure you know my fears are justified. 
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Post by Swimmy on Nov 29, 2008 0:44:15 GMT -5
Swimmy, many of the circumstantial evidence you mentioned can be easily planted to convict someone and that has taken place in many, many cases.
If you classify DNA results as circumstantial evidence that's fine, but it's the only one I feel I can put any trust in. Direct evidence -- eyewitness testimony can also be doctored or crafted in such a manner that an innocent person can go to jail. The LAPD is notorious for both. Even DNA can be misleading. It's why I am against the death penalty: we can never 100% be sure we convicted the right person. Otherwise, there would be no need for organizations such as the Innocence Project. "Unfortunate" that the system failed to bring out the truth until now?" No Swimmy it's not "unfortunate" in Barnes's case, it's a crime! I believe this boy was railroaded to protect the real killer and I hope in a short time this will be proven so Dave and others can ease up their worries about the complete innocence of this boy. I hope more for this boy's sake the real killer is finally brought to justice and all facts of this case is finally brought out to the public so this boy can live out what's left of his life in peace. I have spoken to my parents about this. My mother was teaching at Whitesboro during this time. She recalls it and is in the apparent minority that he is truly innocent of this tragic set of events. Remember, the DNA only exonerates him from the rape, not the murder or other crimes potentially pending against him. My father believes that he may still be connected to this poor girl's death, though not the rape. As I said, I do not know the case well enough to comment on it, so I will refrain from posting my two cents. Like I stated before to many it's just a number but to Barnes and his family it was 19 long years without him being able to sit at the table with his family on days like this Thanksgiving day.
This was a crime to both families in now having to relive the tradegy both have had to endure. My sympathy and prayers goes out to both and I hope for both, justice will be served soon.
I share your hope that true justice will be served this time around. I believe it was Dave or Mr. Tanoury who mentioned conviction rates and truth rates. This case is but one of many examples for my theory that a District Attorney should be appointed, not elected. So many of these tragic cases could be resolved properly if the DAs involved weren't so worried about getting a high conviction rate so they can be re-elected. Even at 14-yr terms, the office is still highly political. One factor many voters do not think about evaluating is the office's appeal rate: how many times the conviction has been affirmed versus overturned. It's not a number that you can easily determine because no one thinks about that. It is one thing to have a high conviction rate, but it says a great deal about a DA with a high overturn rate, just like a judge. If you look at the federal level, they have a 98% conviction rate. But I don't think you can find how many of those convictions are overturned. Yet, the US AG has a reputation of not charging someone unless they are certain they can get a conviction. Because the position is appointed, there is no need to worry about conviction rates as much. They focus on getting the right person and enough evidence to lock away their defendants for a long time. Imagine if the county da's did the same?! The number of reported cases such as this and others like the Desire Case case would be counted on one hand per year (admittedly, that would still be too much, but way better than the current situation). |
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Post by dgriffin on Nov 29, 2008 9:17:36 GMT -5
Swimmy, you've touched upon something that has always bothered me, the degree of self interest invovled in the prosecution of criminals. God help me if I'm standing in the way of some prosecutor's career aspirations! Or even his sense of "fair play." To me, the darkest character on the "Law and Order" series is the character Jack McCoy (Sam Waterston), the lead assistant DA. (By the way, I think Michael Moriarty played the role better in the beginning.) McCoy's hard "take no prisoner's" approach to his work can be scary, especially when he bends the law and the process to suit his sense of justice, trumping up a charge, lying to the defense attorney, etc. And imagine how much worse it can get if a guy is running for office and is trying to push up his stats. Once in a while,I even entertain the thought that OJ might be innocent, such is the sad state of affairs in Los Angeles. On the other hand, the handling of that case by the LA County DA's office was so poor, they should have taken Marcia what's-her-name out behind the courthouse afterward to be blindfolded and shot. (OJ's trying on the glove comes to mind.) I would be really afraid were I unjustly accused of a crime. First of all, I've sat on a Grand Jury, so I'm fully in accord with the idea that "the DA could indict a ham sandwich." A grand juror hears only what the DA wants him to, unless the defendant decides to testify without immunity. At the trial, I would be looking at 12 of my peers who may or may not be. And any of them would be quite unusual to not assume the mere fact of my indictment weighs heavily toward my guilt. Enter then a prosecutor like Beth Cozzolino, the Columbia County DA across the river from me. From what I've read in the paper, she's hell on wheels, ruining the lives of a couple accused of child molestation and even keeping a guy's artificial leg as evidence while prosecuting him, and even after the conviction (to ensure he wouldn't appeal.) cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/238/145/515397/Best to play nice and keep from having to enter the justice system. |
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Post by tanouryjr on Nov 29, 2008 19:50:33 GMT -5
Great posts by Swimmy and Dave. I won't go into too much detail about my feelings about the matter, but suffice it to say that I agree 100% about the flaws in our justice system. I agree with Ralph too, it isn't perfect but it's the best we have. I think it was Winston Churchhill that said "Democracy is the worst form of government, besides all those tried before it." The point; Democracy is wondeful but it's far from perfect and only close to successful when actually practiced. "True" Democracy is a myth. It's like a sunset; you can keep chasing it but you will never actually obtain it.
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Post by tanouryjr on Nov 29, 2008 19:53:17 GMT -5
I talked about my feelings about the whole conviction rate v. truth rate theory I have on tonight's radio show (Dancy's Corner 88.7 FM - Saturdays from 4-6pm live). We videotaped some of the radio show tonight, so I'm hoping to get the editing done in a couple days and put it online. It is a work in prgress but we hope to get it pretty polished and start publishing the show online and try for Public Access. Anyone interested in helping out or coming on the show would be more than welcomed.
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Post by bobbbiez on Nov 29, 2008 22:59:17 GMT -5
Swimmy, I'm sure because of past topics you know my reasons for my stand "against" the death penalty. I take this stand because of cases such as Barnes and the case this past summer with the release of a family friend who spent 16 yrs. in prison for a crime he did not commit. Another case handled by the Innocence Project. As in your parents thinking, one of who will always "wonder" if Barnes was involved even though a witness testified Barnes was in a different place when the murder was committed. Believe me, your Mom is not an "apparent minority" in her belief Barnes is truly innocent. Many have fought by his side for 19 yrs. trying to prove his innocence and many more now are doing the same. Time will tell all. If the "now" justice system does their job properly the real killers will be brought to justice. As I stated before, then Barnes can live out what's left of his life in peace without this hanging over his head. That then will be justice served.
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boomer
Mild Pushover
Posts: 128 
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Post by boomer on Dec 8, 2008 0:21:22 GMT -5
Hi swimmy, I'm not a felon yet but watched a friend who had bad friends basically cut deals with the da and said he was the ringleader of their trouble when he was actually trying to get away from them all. The lawyer knew for a fact that the da knew they were full of it and told him. He talked it all over with us after cooking in OCJ for over a year and copped out to 7 years lost rather than face 4 or 5 lying rats at trial and Mike Dwyer's PROMISE of 15 years after he lost at trial. And Dwyer made SURE he knew he would lose at trial wink wink. Dwyer was his usual self and (I think) mixed up cases with someone else's when he was yakking on at sentencing. We were all amazed. Even today no one even the lawyer knows he was talking about.
His daughter died from lupas while he was in prison. He came out a broken two time felon and his parole officer violated him for not showing up to give a DNA sample. (He went to the hosptal or parole after whoever does that had just left. After he maxed out they admitted he wasn't a violent felon and didn't need to have submitted it in the first place. His parole officer wrote in his report that he is a "known coke user", and I know for a fact that he wouldn't even touch coke, period. He doesn't even drink.
Today, he's a shell of what he could have been. He doesn't hate cops but won't talk to them. He has no drive at all. He has talents I can only dream of but works changing tires. If he would apply himself we always say he could make a fortune with his brain. But he won't. When we talk the closest I think I can understand he's afraid to do anything to improve his life and succeed but I think he thinks they'll just take it all away again. He saw a very serious crime and wouldn't call the da with info. Some of that may be his fault, but I think I have watched enough of the pain to be able to complain about what I see every day every year. I saw all this happen to the guy and contributed to his lawyer fees. It was enraging to watch helpless knowing he'd even asked me to move in with me to get away from the "friends" who had turned out to be scum.
I feel he was a bigger catch with his prior record so they made him the focus. The "co-defendants" who sold him like a trinket all went on to prison careers in the years that passed. We all just read one of the names last week. My friend gets pissed when he sees people buying tools at Lowes and returning them after they use them. It has been an honor and a curse knowing him. I have seen this guy handle stuff I would go postal about.
I am not a fortunate man either. My life also got chopped in another fashion and I am very sensitive to people who damage people's lives and forget about it after lunch. When I look to him I actually thank my stars for not having to accept that like he does. He will barely even talk about it but has to live with the pieces of it every single day. Life has enough tragedy from "acts of god" and accidents, the man made ones are the real crimes an unecessary. So yeah I'm pretty angry about what I see every time I pick up the newspaper.
But I like you guys!!
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Post by Ralph on Dec 8, 2008 3:00:28 GMT -5
Ya know Boomer, I really hate hearing crap like that.
Sounds like they took someone that was trying to be a real "stand up" individual and made a patsy out of him for their own benefit.
People that do that suck, doesn't matter what side of the office door they are on.
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Post by bobbbiez on Dec 8, 2008 20:30:52 GMT -5
Boomer, I to have heard and know people who have been abused by the justice system. Many folks don't want to believe our justice system screws up so badly, but in reality, it does more then most know. Many times I hear the statement, "it may not be perfect, but it's all we got." Well, for those that have been abused by our system it's not as simple as that. Their lives and their families lives have been changed forever and the scars will always be there in one form or another. Some are never able to find peace in their lives again. I commend you for sticking by your friend. It is not an easy thing to do. As you stated, "it has been a honor and a curse knowing him," some of us know what you mean and that said it all. Continue giving him your support. You will never regret it. 
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Post by golden on Dec 8, 2008 21:07:50 GMT -5
My sentiments exactly Bobbie Z!
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Swimmy, many of the circumstantial evidence you mentioned can be easily planted to convict someone and that has taken place in many, many cases.
