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Post by dgriffin on Mar 5, 2008 19:31:47 GMT -5
In Bermuda, each high school graduate ... and there are few who are not ... takes a year or 18 months, I forgot which, to become a member of Bermuda's standing Army. The young people I met (they were out in force on 9/11/01 when I was last there) seemed to be enjoying their introduction to life and had the time to make plans for mainland colleges or other training in the future. True, they faced very little danger of dieing on some foreigh shore, but I think the US could have a similar service, with those who wanted to volunteering for dangerous duty. And I believe there would be enough who would. And an offhand thought: I wonder if we would be a bit more careful about involving ourselves in wars if ALL of our children were in the armed forces, no exceptions.
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Post by thelma on Mar 5, 2008 19:43:55 GMT -5
First of all, as a Single Parent there was no way in heck I could afford dishing out cash to my 4 children to "reward" them for getting A's. I would NOT do this even if I had the money!
Instead, if the passed ALL their subjects when they were in High School, they got their "reward" by being allowed an extra hour before curfew on the weekend -or- they got to pick out their favorite meal and I would make it for them.
When my youngest daughter was 16, and back in those days could drop out of school on her own wishes, that is exactly what she did. The first week she had quit, I took her to a Nursing Home and made her put an application in for a Nurses Aide - and she was hired (at minimum wage).
When she got her first paycheck, she thought she was rich. She needed a new winter coat and I told her now that she was working, she was going to be responsible for buying ALL her clothes and anything else she wanted (I would feed her and make sure she had a roof over her head.) Her paycheck was $85 after taxes, etc - her winter cost was $79 and she had to wait 2 weeks for another paycheck. You should have seen her face when she realized that working 2 weeks for $85 was not going to buy her the things she wanted!!!!!!!
Within 3 months, she got her GED and signed up at the School of Commerce where she took a computer/secretarial course for 1 year - got her Student Loan in her name - graduated and got a much better job than the Nurses Aide.
That is when it finally dawned on her the words I always told her - "The more you have to use your brain, the more money you will make" and I constantly reminded her the physical labor type of jobs usually don't pay as much as anyone can do them.
Kids have to be taught reality and parents have to stop babying them or they will never leave home and go out in this world and support themselves.
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Post by Clipper on Mar 5, 2008 20:29:48 GMT -5
 Okay, Miss thelma, where the hell have you been all day?? Don't you know that if you aren't going to be on here, you have to get a written excuse from Bobbbiez? We begin to wonder when you have been gone all day without answering any posts! Bobbbiez was gone most of the day, and nobody was here to pick on us or keep things lively. Just kidding. I hope you were okay and not doing doctors or illness today. I missed something, not seeing your name in the left margin all day. Haha! ;D
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Post by froggy on Mar 5, 2008 20:31:25 GMT -5
Thelma, that's the way its done. Let them learn it the hard way. Those are lessons that can't be taught, only can be learned through living it.
Dropping out was never an option for me, at least if I wanted to stay living in our house that is. When I turned 16, my mom said I was getting a job. They already had one lined up, around the corner at Great American. I started my first job a month to the day of my 16th birthday. I worked in grocery stores for the better part of 11 years. when I had a second chance to go back to college, I jumped at it and made the best of it. The first time around, fresh out of high school was a waste as I really wasn't sure what I wanted to do. After years of grocery stores and what not, I knew I could do more than stock shelves.
From my experiences, I'd rather any of my kids, or kids in general for that matter, to put off going right to college out of high school if they are unsure. My first 2 1/2 years I had a free ride on financial aid, no student loans, and I totally blew that. The second time around I made the best of it as most of it was on my dime, thru student loans. If I had waited and only worked for a year or two, giving myself time to figure out what I wanted to do with my life and know that the work I was doing wasn't it, I might have gotten farther earlier.
Kids don't have to be taught reality, they need to experience reality. I know you and I clashed at the OD because some of what I construed from you about your relationship with your GD appeared to be coddling to me. But after reading your last post and some other stuff, I suppose I took it wrong. I don't like sugarcoating things. Our kids want certain things, we'll give them chores and what not to earn them. My brother in law routinely takes his 7 year old son to the farm with him on Sundays to help him do barn chores. My nephew is tired at the end of the day but smiles with a couple bucks in his hand knowing he earned it. that is how you teach kids the value of working.
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Post by dgriffin on Mar 5, 2008 21:44:56 GMT -5
Thelma, great story. Froggy, I had a similar experience. Spent my first two years out of high school at MVCC, fed and housed by my parents, who also bought my books, tuition paid by a Regents scholarship. I didn't appreciate the gifts I was given. When I graduated, not with any terrific grades, I got a job in NY City. A good job, but sort of a deadend, too. So I saved a few bucks, got loans and went back to school. I worked my way all the way through it, even got married while in school and kept my nose to the grindstone. I remember the summer of '66. My wife was pregnant, I was working 3 jobs and trying to arrange my last 2 semesters so I could attend classes only 3 days a week, commuting 100 miles back and forth each day (Oswego/Syracuse) and working the other 4 days each week. Lucky for me, the company I worked for could provide work to me on any day I was available. When I graduated in 1967 (magna cum laude), I took a full time job ... 5 days a week, and even though a new father, I didn't know what to do with all my spare time! A few years later I similarly got myself through graduate school. It can be done, although I wonder if it was a bit easier back then before the colleges began to increase tuition twice as fast as the rate of inflation. So, I don't have much patience for those who don't want to apply themselves. Did I mention when I grew up on Cornhill I milked 40 cows each morning before walking 18 miles to school? Nah, my kids would never believe that, either. |
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Post by froggy on Mar 5, 2008 22:05:21 GMT -5
Ah, another MVCC alum. Harvard on the hill, Princeton on the parkway.
As it stands right now, I've been working two jobs to take some of the burden off my wife while she is working on her RN. See, people who understand the value of hard work do that. Put things in perspective, the extra time I spend working will only pay off in the end when she gets her RN this summer and continues on for her BA, MA and probably NP. that is unless she divorces me or has me killed beforehand.
But seriously. I could have been a jerk and said no way I would work more for her to go to school. And what would that get us? Nowhere, still staying at the same income levels which aren't even keeping up with inflation. Instead, yes I give up about 2 hours more of my time Mon-Fri like this, but when my wife can easily double her salary, if not more, in a few short years of schooling, why not? Winning the lottery would be easier, but my luck isn't all that good. Besides, she is the safer bet. She's been an LPN for about 10 years now, she's skilled, she's smart, and best of all she has the life experiences and compassion which nurses should have.
They're called long term goals, something many young people don't give much thought to. And at 35, I still consider myself young.
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Post by thelma on Mar 5, 2008 22:48:26 GMT -5
Okay, Miss thelma, where the hell have you been all day?? Don't you know that if you aren't going to be on here, you have to get a written excuse from Bobbbiez? We begin to wonder when you have been gone all day without answering any posts! Bobbbiez was gone most of the day, and nobody was here to pick on us or keep things lively. Just kidding. I hope you were okay and not doing doctors or illness today. I missed something, not seeing your name in the left margin all day. Haha! ;D I've been tearing my kitchen apart and painting all the walls. Wait until the next time you visit with me. You will be amazed what a change in color can make to a room. My kitchen is no longer that horrible dark blue which I hated. It is now a pale "Wintergreen" and I brought out all my Contemporary fixtures I had stored away for the last 18 months. Ten years ago, I could have done all of this is one day. Now, it took me 2 days and I still have a little bit more to do in decorating. I'm teaching my GD "women power" and she helped me measure, center, and hang a large mirror on a wall in the kitchen. She also pounded the nails for the clock and two other wall decorations. Now that she knows how to use a tape measure, hammer and screwdriver, I wish she would learn how to cook - LOL! |
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Post by thelma on Mar 5, 2008 22:54:52 GMT -5
Froggy - I am far from "codling" my GD. In fact, her mother calls me "Sgt Nana" because I am very strict with her. On the otherhand, she also gets "rewarded" when I feel she has EARNED it - LOL. She has responsibilities and "chores" to do to help me in the running and maintenance of this house. She was also a God send and helpmate to me when I was recovering from pneumonia.
There is a difference between "codling" and "loving"!
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Post by dgriffin on Mar 5, 2008 23:34:57 GMT -5
Froggy, my wife went back to school at age 50. I felt abandoned. It was horrible. I was nearing retirement myself, and my plan to sit around the house all day and give her advice was not to be. I couldn't understand why she would pass up such a wonderful opportunity to learn so much from me, but instead wanted to hear knowledge from someone who knew what they were talking about. It still amazes me. Then, do you know what she did? She went and got her own rubber stamp, with her own name on it! No Mr. and Mrs., a term she had seemingly cherished for all those years. After the rubber stamp, she went out and bought her own car without my expert advice! Turns out she is a much better bargainer than I and today she even buys my cars. But still, it was a tough time of transition when she began graduate school. I had to learn how to defrost frozen pizzas (who knew?). I even learned how to operate a vacuum cleaner, which ... don't let anyone fool you... can be dangerous if you try to save time and use the bathroom while operating it. But the biggest challenge was learning where everything was in the house. That big box at the foot of the basement stairs? It holds food that it keeps frozen for years, I guess. Underwear and socks don't just magically appear in the dresser drawer, I found, they had to be washed and brought all the way back up two floors to the bedroom. And then I found out we had something called a Dryer and I didn't have to hang them all over the living room.
Today, I'm practically a new man. I vacuum regularly, if carefully, have replaced all my clothing with nothing that needs to be ironed and have some deft tricks for keeping the house clean. The other day as I passed through the living room and noticed the piano needed dusting, I realized that since I have never figured out where we keep cleaning or dusting clothes, I could just slip off my sweat pants and use them to bring the piano to a nice lustrous shine. How was I to know we had company?
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Post by Clipper on Mar 5, 2008 23:39:02 GMT -5
 Cool Thelma! When you get her trained in carpentry skills let me know. She can come down for the summer, and stay in the 5th wheel in the yard, with cable and her own place. All she will have to do is rebuild the carport, which needs some wood replaced, and help Kathy with the canning when the garden produce gets ripe. We will send her back to you, knowing how to cook, can, and pickle fresh veggies, and bake wonderful cakes. How do ya think I got so fat, haha.  WE would spoil her a little. We would take her to Nashville and to Dollywood amusement park, and would pay her a living wage, haha. the only problem is that Kathy never had any kids of her own, and she might not want to give her back!!! ;D Then Gram can sit back and be spoiled with supper being cooked while you wile away your hours on the computer playing with us on the forums, haha! ;D
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Post by kim on Mar 6, 2008 8:38:26 GMT -5
Froggy, which Great American did you work in? I worked at Great American, too, and I went to 'Princeton on the Parkway' before transferring to Utica College. Nothing wrong with community college, I don't care what anyone else says! I think community colleges are great. Anyway, I'm only a couple of years older than you...we might know each other!
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Post by kim on Mar 6, 2008 8:46:07 GMT -5
I don't know if mandatory military service would be appropiate, Clipper. There are some people who are just not cut out for the military. I know I wouldn't have done well in the military. Some sort of volunteer work, though might be ok.
I don't think my son will ever be in the military even if he wants to be. Since he's deaf and has an implant I don't think he'd pass the medical requirements.
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Post by froggy on Mar 6, 2008 10:12:53 GMT -5
Froggy, which Great American did you work in? I worked at Great American, too, and I went to 'Princeton on the Parkway' before transferring to Utica College. Nothing wrong with community college, I don't care what anyone else says! I think community colleges are great. Anyway, I'm only a couple of years older than you...we might know each other! Mohawk st (#442 I think was the store # if I remember correctly) for about 7 years. Took us a week and a half to box up the store when it closed in 1996. From there I went to the one on Genesee St in S. Utica, the former Grand Union. That, too closed the same week the Olympic torch came through the city. I tried taking a pic of the torch bearer with the store in the background to show "history" but I was facing the sun and it blotted out the torch. Once that one closed, it was over to Whitesboro. First day there I knew I didn't want to be there and applied to both Chanatry's on French rd and Hannaford (Shop n Save then) and ended up going to SnS since at least one of my friends from the GA days was there already. Manditory military, I can't say I'dd support that either. There are some people not cut out for it because of physical, mental or a host of other problems. I do, however, feel everyone should have to take on some kind of menial job at some point. Whether it be bagging groceries, sweeping floors, flipping burgers, etc.. I know after doing many of those things, I have a different view of things. I like to at least put shopping carts in the corales or back to the store, because I used to have to fetch carts. I don't like to throw trash on the ground because I used to have to sweep and pick up that crap. Its always fun scraping gum off the store floors. The list goes on and on. But I guess part of my upbringing weighs on how I carry myself. Just because other people are doing it doesn't make it ok. I think making all kids in and fresh out of high school to have to perform these types of jobs for a length of time might instill some sense of values. Perhaps people wouldn't throw their gum on the floor if they had to get down and scrape it off. And when I say all, I mean all, from the poorest of poor to the richest of rich. Imagine if Paris Hilton was forced to be an indentured servant maybe she'd have a little bit of dignity. |
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Post by Swimmy on Mar 6, 2008 10:42:07 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about paying kids to go to school and get good grades (I chose get instead of earn for reasons I'll demonstrate later).
From a legal perspective, it would throw a lot of laws under question. First being the laws prohibiting minors from working. Paying them to go to school and get good grades sounds a lot like a job. It would also make part of the fair labor standards act unconsitutional because as it stands right now, students cannot demand overtime or any pay from their schools because students go to school primarily for their own benefit, not for the school's benefit. Then there is always the tax issue, how much do we tax the little bastards? It reminds me of a santa clause joke.
Then there is the question of what these kids are going to spend the money on. Candy? Video games? Or should there be a condition on the money that it only be spent for education needs, e.g. school supplies or tuition?
We have seen how money corrupts just about everything, from church (tithes) and politics to charities. Instead of the usual bullying, can we now expect kids to be prosecuted under RICO laws for "buying" better grades?
Whilst money would be a good motivator for the kids to study, how do we ensure that the kids retain the knowledge for later in life? That should be the ultimate goal, not some A on a report card. What good are you if you can't realize the lessons from Newton's laws of physics and apply them to your life's situations? This to me is the biggest fear. Somewhere in American society, we went from teaching important life lessons that people use throughout their lives to focusing on retaining the information long enough to regurgitate it on an exam and forget it. I noticed in college when my computer science colleagues with 4.0s would come to me or other students who were not as academically superior for help on basic skills they should have already known. One of my professors was shocked to learn that many of the students with 3.5s or better could not program as well as those with lesser gpas or they could not program at all. But they had the gpa.
This idea goes counter to the happy-go-lucky lovey-dovey attitude we've been fostering over the past decade or so, that everyone is a winner. I'm glad. Kids need to know that not everyone finishes first. It's better to teach them when their younger. The consequences of teaching them later in life cripples them for the rest of their lives. They fail to grasp basic concepts of everything. I know a couple kids my age who don't feel they should have to take an entry level job because it's below them. They fail to realize that it's a necessary step toward attaining the job they feel they are qualified for by mere possession of a 4-yr degree. Not so. But we were raised in an environment where everyone was a winner.
It's a sad state of affairs when American schools have to use money to inspire children to study. Like many of you, I had tough love when I grew up. My mom once told me that if I didn't like living under her roof, I could leave. I thought about it and realized I don't have the money to do that. So I busted my ass to get the grades I needed. It's paid off so far. I agree with many that this is just another example of parenting failing because people have kids for the prestige of having kids but hate that it inconveniences their lives.
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Post by Swimmy on Mar 6, 2008 10:46:50 GMT -5
The joke I'm thinking about goes like this... A little boy wanted $100 for Christmas. So he wrote to Santa asking for just that. Not having Santa's real address, he mailed the letter to the White house (at the time the joke was told to me, billy was in charge) assuming that the President would know where Santa is and see to it that Santa received his letter. The President's staff noticed the letter and gave it to the President. Bill was so entertained by the letter that he told the staff to mail him a check for $5. The boy received the check and immediately wrote Santa a thank you letter, addressed to the White house. It read, Dear Santa,
Thank you for the check. As usual those bastards in the federal government took out their share for taxes.
Yours truly. |
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Okay, Miss thelma, where the hell have you been all day?? Don't you know that if you aren't going to be on here, you have to get a written excuse from Bobbbiez? We begin to wonder when you have been gone all day without answering any posts! Bobbbiez was gone most of the day, and nobody was here to pick on us or keep things lively. Just kidding. I hope you were okay and not doing doctors or illness today. I missed something, not seeing your name in the left margin all day. Haha! ;D
Cool Thelma! When you get her trained in carpentry skills let me know. She can come down for the summer, and stay in the 5th wheel in the yard, with cable and her own place. All she will have to do is rebuild the carport, which needs some wood replaced, and help Kathy with the canning when the garden produce gets ripe. We will send her back to you, knowing how to cook, can, and pickle fresh veggies, and bake wonderful cakes. How do ya think I got so fat, haha. 
