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Post by dave on Jun 14, 2013 22:31:11 GMT -5
It may be convenient to blame all our problems on a stock market decline five years ago but even a randomly managed fund should have recovered its value by now. An intelligently managed fund should have shown gains. We have the best fund managers political influence can procure so I would hope for at least average performance. From what I've read the NYS Pension Fund has more money than anytime in history. The problem is that it still isn't enough money to meet future obligations. Very true. My portfolio recovered and it isn't managed by a genius. Besides, everyone but state and local governments admitted the dot.com bubble would burst long before it did. There was ample market history to show it would happen. In fact, it's impossible for the market to not correct and contract eventually. I remember saying, gee, you'd think the state would be more careful. The market isn't going to spiral upward forever. And yet state officials acted like drunken sailors with our future.
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Post by dave on Jun 14, 2013 22:45:05 GMT -5
Well, here's how it works, Kracker. Employees in industry are paid according the going rate for their labor. This varies according to market circumstances, value of labor, etc. It's not an exact science, but wages are subject to market forces.
Wages for state workers are not subject to market forces, except that the state must compete with private industry and pay employees accordingly if they want people to come to work for them. As I taxpayer, I understand that. And if I want the trains to run on time and the bridges to hold up (they are gonna fix the bridges, aren't they?) I will expect to pay state employees a salary equivalent to industry jobs.
But to compensate them more, either via benefits or wages or retirement income, far beyond the industry norms, is not fair to taxpayers.
So, yes, I expect state workers and teachers to earn a decent living, but I think some parts of their compensation package are over done.
Regarding layoffs and overtime. My son was laid off from NY State, although he has gotten some work from them and is getting along. It seems to me that there is so much wasted effort in state agencies that instead of paying overtime and hiring contractors, NY could find a lot of instances where they could simply stop dong the work.
And I"m told by my son-in-law, another NY state employee, that a real problem in NY is the duplication of work between state and local agencies. I have personally seen that at the local level. Jobs for a politician's family members is often the reason why.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Jun 15, 2013 7:10:32 GMT -5
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Post by dave on Jun 15, 2013 12:50:15 GMT -5
From the first referenced article: "The U.S. government has more than 100 programs dealing with surface transportation issues, 82 monitoring teacher quality, 80 for economic development, 47 for job training, 20 offices or programs devoted to homelessness and 17 different grant programs for disaster preparedness. Another 15 agencies or offices handle food safety, and five are working to ensure the federal government uses less gasoline." And think of the size of payrolls that represents. "Isaac's Storm" www.amazon.com/Isaacs-Storm-Deadliest-Hurricane-History/dp/0375708278was a memorable book about the hurricane that devastated Galveston in 1900. One of the memorable facts from the book (to me) was that the United States Weather Bureau's national office in Washington in 1900, aside from limitations of meteorological science at that time, was able through a network of one and two man weather stations across the country track and predict most hurricanes with a Washington staff totaling less than a dozen employees without computers. Times have changed.
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Post by longtimer on Jun 16, 2013 5:28:29 GMT -5
The simple fact is that pension costs are killing taxpayers. Sorry to disagree but it is all state pensioners, not just locals. There are many reasons, mostly political, and those on the higher tiers are contributing more but those in the lower tiers have a golden egg. One example is the fact that overtime is calculated into the base. This is absolutely absurd and we all know that pension padding has been a standard practice for decades. It may be in the contract but it is simply wrong and should be stricken from the contract. the double dipping that has existed also has pushed the system to the limit.
State workers have not worked for "lower wages" since the mid 70's so that is not a factor. public employees should have salaries and benefits comparable to the private sector but they should not be better than the private sector. As unfair as it sounds, from an economic stand point, we would be much better off if the system actually encouraged people not to make public sector employment a career.
One other little thing to think about. NYS calculates it's pension fund balances using a different methodology and standard than private pension funds do. There has been a lot of debate that the formula is actually hiding a much bigger liability than they are reporting. To be clear, the formula they use is legal, just considered weak and misleading by some economists.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 14:58:10 GMT -5
The simple fact is that pension costs are killing taxpayers. Sorry to disagree but it is all state pensioners, not just locals. There are many reasons, mostly political, and those on the higher tiers are contributing more but those in the lower tiers have a golden egg. One example is the fact that overtime is calculated into the base. This is absolutely absurd and we all know that pension padding has been a standard practice for decades. It may be in the contract but it is simply wrong and should be stricken from the contract. the double dipping that has existed also has pushed the system to the limit. State workers have not worked for "lower wages" since the mid 70's so that is not a factor. public employees should have salaries and benefits comparable to the private sector but they should not be better than the private sector. As unfair as it sounds, from an economic stand point, we would be much better off if the system actually encouraged people not to make public sector employment a career. One other little thing to think about. NYS calculates it's pension fund balances using a different methodology and standard than private pension funds do. There has been a lot of debate that the formula is actually hiding a much bigger liability than they are reporting. To be clear, the formula they use is legal, just considered weak and misleading by some economists. I really have to laugh when I read how public employees are the blame for high taxes. Gee, O.C. has a surplus of how many millions? Is Picente lowering the sales or property tax rate? Nope. Anyone who thinks that their tax rates are going to miraculously be lowered when public employees get screwed over is out of their mind. No, Picente & his ilk will find another scapegoat to blame. Now it's public employees, next time around it will be something else. Public employees should not receive better wages or benefits than anyone else? Gimme a break. Corporate America has, as a business practice done everything in it's power to screw over the middle class worker. Let's all go to the poor house together, is that it?
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Post by dave on Jun 19, 2013 18:14:51 GMT -5
"Let's all go to the poor house together, is that it?"
Nope. This is it: Let's not crush the taxpayers with burdensome taxes at least partly due to compensation packages for government workers that are out of line with the labor market.
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Post by corner on Jun 20, 2013 6:01:51 GMT -5
the bottom line is how many of you in your 20's would have refused a decent paying job with guaranteed security guaranteed benefits and company paid pension? ? not one of you I promise! so lest stop the public employee bashing especially because most of worked in the criminal chasing bu;siness the mental health industry and the prison industry ...how many of you wouldn't get unemployment benefits social security dis ability with the benefit of a competent government worker frankly im tired of taking it in the ass from you guys
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Post by dave on Jun 20, 2013 7:24:27 GMT -5
Corner, no, that's not the bottom line. Of course any of us would have taken such a deal. But the bottom line is whether the total compensation packages of public employees ... paid for by taxpayers ... is in line with the labor market. There is no reason why public employees should be compensated more. If you want to compensate a policeman more for being in the line of fire than a shoe salesman, fine, that is certainly fair. But paying a motor vehicle clerk more than a bricklayer brings us to the question of what is fair in other occupations. And aside from that, I'm referring to the overall trends of compensation among public and private workers.
I don't begrudge you your pay and retirement. You earned it. But I'm frankly tired of taking it in the ass as a taxpayer.
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Post by corner on Jun 20, 2013 12:50:31 GMT -5
you all forget government workers are taxpayers too paid 40 bucks in taxes for every 100 I earned
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