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Post by arkangel on Mar 20, 2009 13:05:06 GMT -5
www.newhartfordnyonline.blogspot.com/ has done it again. Read the last in a series of waste, mismanagement, fraud and corruption within the Town of New Hartford. Republican cronyism at it's best!
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Post by clarencebunsen on Mar 20, 2009 21:26:11 GMT -5
Could someone please print out the meaning of the phrase "begs the question" and tape it to the computer screen of the person writing letters for Concerned Citizens.
Sorry, but that particular misuse always bugs. It makes me feel that the person misusing it relly is misinformed in a Cliff Clavinesque way.
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Post by frankcor on Mar 20, 2009 22:57:15 GMT -5
LOL, Clarence! That's one of my pet peeves, too.
I always know I've won an argument when someone uses "begs the question" when in fact they mean "leads to the question."
For anyone who cares and if my memory serves me, begging the question is a tactic used in debate that uses false logic but is often effective with an unsophisticated audience. It involves an attempt to prove a point by phrasing it as a question. For example: "Mr. Smith, when are you going to stop beating your wife?" By "begging the question," the assertion is made that Mr. Smith beats his wife without actually proving that he does.
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Post by swampfox on Mar 21, 2009 6:20:09 GMT -5
While one may not like the term used...it in no way takes away from the main theme...that is, corruption in government.
To point out what one may not like does not detract from the information provided readers.
The documentation and the story being told in the accompanying letter, logically presents facts as they happened.
In my world, "begs the question..." merely supports an underlying question, as to why did they do this?
Whether a reader likes the term or not, a writer is free to exercise a degree of editorial license. However, in the instant matter I personally am supportive of the writer's professionalism in laying out the facts and letting the readers make up their own mind.
Do not kill the messenger.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Mar 21, 2009 6:35:17 GMT -5
Sorry, but I'm in a pendantic mood this morning.
Consider it "constructive criticism." Incorrect usage tends to distract from the point being made. It causes the reader or listener to question what else the presenter may have gotten wrong.
In any case, I meant no attack on you as messenger.
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Post by frankcor on Mar 21, 2009 7:46:44 GMT -5
Swampfox, I too intended no attack nor do I wish to diminish the message. On the contrary, I admire the work of New Hartford Online, Cathy Lawrence and Ed Wiatr. You may or may not know that as long as 2 years ago, I have pointed out what I saw as characteristics of Mr. Wiatr's writing that diminished his arguments and positions. When language is used ambiguously or incorrectly, the reader tends to glaze-over the message. So in this case, I put myself in the position of a Town Counselor or an Attorney reading the following: Accordingly, the facts in this illegal payment of overtime and too, the granting of a benefit of compensatory time where none exists begs the question, "How could this payment be effected?" It is quite likely that someone, especially an attorney who has taken courses in logic, to say to themselves "obviously, these people have no clue what they're talking about." and discard the rest of the message. When communicating, you can't rely on the reader to understand the meaning of a phrase in your world. You need to use language correctly as understood in the world at large. I have offered my assistance to Ed in the past. My offer still stands. Time permitting, I'll be happy to review his letters prior to publishing. I really mean to help. I apologize that my manner was offensive. I'll make that clearer in the future.
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Post by swampfox on Mar 21, 2009 8:59:56 GMT -5
frankcor,
I found your comments enlightening, however, I too, was confused but certainly did not consider your comments offensive. In my business life have used "license" either incorrectly or correctly, (I am laughing while writing this response) because I feel that the intentions in one's message is sincere.
I cannot begin to tell you how many senior management officials and I do mean senior...author e-mails and they cannot even spell nor do they use spell check. This does not make their message less important, it merely means they could just be a bad speller but a great leader of people.
I tend to look at the bigger picture, for example, the bigger picture of what the writer is trying to say. From there, I will make up my own mind and hopefully, we can all see the results of what is being written.
I do not know Ed, however, I had the privilege of meeting Ms. Lawrence. She is quite the writer and well-versed in the subject matter. Her wit and humor go hand-in-glove in her many writings on her websites. It does appear the two make for a strong Team, only subject to the wishes of their members who pretty much give advice and direction - at times. I am thinking of joining their mailing list, however, my work takes me everywhere and I would like to feel I could contribute something to their cause.
It would appear bloggers, in general have a certain degree of tenacity, however, I feel that is a strong point because of the nature of the beast.
What I have found when reading the Observer Dispatch was how biased the news reporters were, especially when reading the Frank Basile - town Financial Consultant who received over $100,000 and the O.D. whitewashes this whole matter.
Where else but the Observer Dispatch can one find journalism that nowhere resembles the Watergate Style form of investigative reporting. Ms. Donna Donovan, Publisher has ruined this paper by using it as her personal forum and for that of her son and husband who (I understand) was "appointed" Chairman of the New Hartford Town Planning Board.
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Post by dgriffin on Mar 21, 2009 9:32:06 GMT -5
I cannot begin to tell you how many senior management officials and I do mean senior...author e-mails and they cannot even spell nor do they use spell check. This does not make their message less important .. It diminishes the impact of their message. It's impossible in our society to read bad English and not take away a negative opinion of the writer. It's the reason why so many who wish to influence the public work hard on their writing skills or hire writers to do it for them. Before retiring, I worked for a very large international company. I remember when email came into use and for the first time receiving emails from senior management, the notes unwashed by their secretaries. It became obvious that a few executives were poor spellers, and their emails were laughable for their syntax. Their poor writing skills caused a change in the perception of their abilities, whether warranted or not. While the force of one's personality, intelligence and business acumen may win the day, the odor left behind when murdering the King's English hangs around a while in people's memories.
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Post by frankcor on Mar 21, 2009 10:45:37 GMT -5
One of the greatest frustrations of professional communicators is that the senior managers who have the poorest writing skills are also the ones who value professional communications the least.
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Post by dgriffin on Mar 21, 2009 11:29:09 GMT -5
I'm still laughing. www.searchlores.org/contract.htmlA Night At The Opera"The first part of the party of the first part shall be known in this contract as the first part of the party of the first part shall be known in this contract"
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Post by frankcor on Mar 21, 2009 11:44:16 GMT -5
They really don't write 'em like that any more.
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Post by clarencebunsen on Mar 21, 2009 11:45:12 GMT -5
Ok, You said the magic word, the duck's gonna come down & give you $100.
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Post by Clipper on Mar 21, 2009 12:13:03 GMT -5
I guess I am less educated, and more tolerant of the use of our language. To me, it doesn't take away from my image of, or respect for the writer or from the message being conveyed.
I understand that a scholar with perfected language skills might be annoyed by another's lack of perfect utilization of proper wording. The rest of us seem to get the message and are more forgiving of the writing skills of the author.
I just feel that a discussion forum is NOT a masters or doctoral thesis, and minor errors in verbage are not showstoppers.
I joined a writers critique site when I was more active in attempting to write short stories. I found that I write as I speak, and that in reading those critiques, they were more tailored to those that want to publish commercially, or "perfect" their writing. I guess I am simply a man that wants to put words on paper, and have them read. I am not too awfully concerned about professional editing or professional writing skills. It kinda took the fun out of the writing, so I will simply do my best to make my writing good enough for "More Stories" and let the rest of the world edit, chop, correct, draft, and after the fun is gone out of it, finally come to a final draft worth publishing.
I envy those with more education than I, but I don't criticize those that do their best with what they have.
I managed millions of dollars worth of assets for our government, that were scattered all around the world, when I held a position of an Installation Resources Manager at the Engineering and Installation Division Headquarters in Oklahoma City. I was responsible for 27000 vehicles and heavy equipment assets world wide. I also was charged with their acquisition, maintenance and disposal, as well as being the transportation advisor to all communications oriented Air National Guard units nationwide. I teleconferenced, and communicated in writing and by telecon frequently with Generals and high ranking government officials, and none of them ever sent one of my written communications back with the grammar errors identified in red pencil. Amazingly, they seemed to understand what I had to say, perfectly well, and I "ain't got no edumacation" except for a two year degree in accounting. Generals always understood my conversation and my writings, so I won't get too excited if someone misspeaks or misspells a word or two, although I personally do my best to avoid such mistakes.
Bottom line. It's a chat forum. It is strictly my opinion that we are not being fair to a NEW member, with a valuable and well researched and documented message, when we take them to task for penny ante errors in grammar. Give it a break.
I have NEVER been criticized for MY grammar, and I am the world's worst speller, and not exactly an English language scholar. I post profusely and haven't been critiqued as of yet. Sheesh. THAT is just my unsolicitited, and as always, OUTSPOKEN and narrow minded opinion, LOL.
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Post by dgriffin on Mar 21, 2009 13:00:34 GMT -5
Most of us don't take a lot of care when we type a a response on a forum. Writing for publication is another matter. Or should be. It's not a matter of education. The sentence I cited sounded to me artifically ....well ....let me jusst tab over to the Thesaurus ... uh ...grandiloquent. Hahahaha!
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Post by frankcor on Mar 21, 2009 13:25:40 GMT -5
The error we were discussing was in a formal letter, not on a message forum.
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